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Author Topic: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years  (Read 4204 times)

Reckall

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2021, 08:56:13 AM »
Leaving this here as I found it fitting with the discussion in this thread.

https://www.convergemedia.org/wokeism-the-new-religion-of-the-west/

That article can be summed up as "OMG! We're losing our Christian Values! Christianity is the only Cure!"
That's as much a dark path risk as Wokeism in my experience.

IMHO, it is more complex and interesting with that. True, it starts by pointing out how "Wokeism" is born as a way to fill the "God-shaped hole in our culture" caused by the rise of secularism - something I agree with (I also agree with the idea that the same "hole" is also filled by para-scientific religions, like extraterrestrial cults).

And, true, it ends by saying that the only solution is a return to Christian beliefs (BTW, this doesn't mean believing is a supernatural God and all the Christian mystic paraphernalia: one can agree with Jesus' teachings simply because he thinks that they make sense, even if he doesn't believe in Jesus' divine nature - something often missed).

In the middle, however, I think that this piece is a clear and powerful dissection of the "Woke" religion, something that gives food for thought to everybody. The, IMHO, most important quote actually comes from an atheist, James Linsday:

“Some religions look up, they’re looking at God, and they’re afraid of sin, but they’re paying attention to God, and they’re thinking about renewal, they’re thinking about redemption, they’re thinking about forgiveness. And then some religions look down, and all they do is look at sin. If you look up, then religion can be great, it can lead people in spiritual development, community and so on, but if you’re looking down, if you’re obsessing about sin, you’re going to start obsessing about everybody else’s sin too.

...Which is one of the best tools for understand what is happening, for example, at TBP. Something that is reinforced by a follow up quote, this time from a theologian, Nathan Finochio:

“If I’m stuck in the oppressor group and there’s no escaping it, there can be no forgiveness if there’s no repentance, right? Like, isn’t that how it works? So I’m just perpetually a sinner, and I’m just going to continue to perpetuate the oppressor group, and there’s nothing that I can do. Of course, cancel culture is actually the logical conclusion of Critical Theory…because they have to get rid of the oppressor class.”


...Which is, still IMHO, one of the best X-Ray examinations of TBP, their regime of terror (no protests, no communications, no way to defend yourself or somebody else), and even of their permabans.

So, sure, this is a Christian approach to the rise of Wokeism, and it is not surprising that the answers offered are Christian ones. But the examination of the problem itself is objective, in-depthy and crystal clear (the latter being something that many critics fail to consider). This is for sure a link I would suggest to someone who asks me "what is this Wokeism thinghie about".
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 09:22:07 AM by Reckall »
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2021, 09:03:10 AM »
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/17041/D12-Descent-into-the-Depths-of-the-Earth-1e
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/17043/D3-Vault-of-the-Drow-1e
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/17054/Q1-Queen-of-the-Demonweb-Pits-1e

Imagine claiming stuff is so "problematic" but having no issue making money off that stuff.

I'm thinking that maybe considering WotC's poor track record that buying anything from them could be "problematic".  If not today, soon, or at least deemed so retroactively.  Better to be safe and not buy anything from them at all. :D

A little "Kantian" Categorical Imperative applied to buying habits:  Treat suppliers as if the rules they espouse were true.

tenbones

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2021, 10:18:55 AM »
I still don't know why anyone is on this ship of fools (WotC's D&D). They get no time, money or energy from me. I mean, you all realize there is no end to this shitshow, reading WotC development announcements is like reading the Fantasy RPG Babylon Bee. It's absurdity masquerading as "D&D".

The D&D you all know and want in publication is dead. We wander the ghost-forests of the old dead-tree editions of yesteryear, still heroic and glorious.

Armchair Gamer

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2021, 11:37:00 AM »
I still don't know why anyone is on this ship of fools (WotC's D&D). They get no time, money or energy from me. I mean, you all realize there is no end to this shitshow, reading WotC development announcements is like reading the Fantasy RPG Babylon Bee. It's absurdity masquerading as "D&D".

The D&D you all know and want in publication is dead. We wander the ghost-forests of the old dead-tree editions of yesteryear, still heroic and glorious.

  They're releasing a Strahd von Zarovich Funko Pop.

  The official game is not for us any more. :)

  (Last new WotC product purchased: Spring 2016. Last money given to WotC: Spring 2019.)
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 01:34:44 PM by Armchair Gamer »

Ghostmaker

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2021, 01:42:07 PM »

  They're releasing a Strahd von Zarovich Funko Pop.

I fucking hate those things.

Jame Rowe

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2021, 01:47:50 PM »
I don't mind rejecting Wokeism. Personally, I'd like some more secular answers to it since I was never a Christian.
Though an answer which learns from it, such as "try to be a good person," can be good.

Just don't let those who want to scream about things win.
Here for the games, not for it being woke or not.

jeff37923

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2021, 02:55:52 PM »
The D&D you all know and want in publication is dead. We wander the ghost-forests of the old dead-tree editions of yesteryear, still heroic and glorious.

I dunno about ghost forests because Advanced Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and Old School Essentials seem to be doing fairly well.

tenbones

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2021, 06:31:54 PM »
  They're releasing a Strahd von Zarovich Funko Pop.

  The official game is not for us any more. :)

  (Last new WotC product purchased: Spring 2016. Last money given to WotC: Spring 2019.)

Exactly. If people are going to get this worked up about the fact our collective child has been abducted by perverts and psychos and are chopping it up to pieces - what interest are we supposed to have when the reality is they never really took our kid at all. They're still right there. What they DID do is steal our kid's identity.

I mean this is how they're going to slow roll out 6e. By amputating and spraying their SJW retard-radiation all over their changeling version of our kid and frankensteining it into their SJW monstrosity. Why be upset? Seriously.

When I realized my emotional connection to D&D really was decades ago and it's *never* been that game since, I accept they own the name, but they don't own its spirit. That's with us. Fuck them.

I'd rather get down with making/playing/running good games with that spirit in them then feel bad about what these leftist dumbasses do. Give them nothing, I say. Especially your energy. Laugh at them sure. But rage on them? meh - trust me, they're lightyears beyond any misery you could heap upon them. And whatever hatred you believe they feel about you - it's likely lightyears beyond that.

D&D is now a cargo-cult effigy of what it once was. I get a kick of how they're destroying it, personally. That the beauty of having *zero* fucks to give about WotC or any D&D zombie edition beyond 2e.

tenbones

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2021, 06:33:58 PM »
The D&D you all know and want in publication is dead. We wander the ghost-forests of the old dead-tree editions of yesteryear, still heroic and glorious.

I dunno about ghost forests because Advanced Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy, and Old School Essentials seem to be doing fairly well.

All of their content would be lush grassland in size compared to the content produced for 3e/4e/5e combined. That's the ghost-forest.

While I don't do OSR content, I LOVE its spirit.

Simon Fiasco

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2021, 02:33:10 AM »
Am I the only one who...

  • ... is an old school gamer...
  • ... leans politically incorrect, and...
  • ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?

TJS

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2021, 03:08:56 AM »
Am I the only one who...

  • ... is an old school gamer...
  • ... leans politically incorrect, and...
  • ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?
No.  Not really.  Once you have the possiblity that a Drow can be 'not evil' then they cease to make any real sense at all.  They only really make sense if they're fey creatures who think in a fundamentally different way than humans.

trechriron

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2021, 03:57:42 AM »
... No.  Not really.  Once you have the possiblity that a Drow can be 'not evil' then they cease to make any real sense at all.  They only really make sense if they're fey creatures who think in a fundamentally different way than humans.

I looked at it like -- this is the most successful imperial city of the Drow (Menzoberranzan- a popular setting for the Drow). It's the common meta because these folks are powerful, conquering, enslaving, and terrifying. The world above fears them, and this is the focus we get because of that. It doesn't preclude other Drow colonies, enclaves, or cities. There could be more cosmopolitan Drow cities based more on, say, commerce. At the time, TSR then WOTC were focused on making enemies for the PCs to counter. It was about a foe so evil as to make you shudder. Dritz doesn't have to be the only good drow. He is an exception to the meta. It makes him unique but it doesn't really preclude other good Drow.

I think we assumed "hard lines" that weren't really drawn. Things were painted in broad strokes and contrasts. The authors left it up to each table to make the game their own. In so doing, we kind of ended up making similar assumptions about things. We could make other assumptions and derive other cultures if we feel that would be fun.

Also, just because the official cannon is going hard left at Albuquerque doesn't mean you can't portray or play the Drow how you want at your table. :-)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 03:59:27 AM by trechriron »
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Pat

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2021, 06:25:55 AM »
Am I the only one who...

  • ... is an old school gamer...
  • ... leans politically incorrect, and...
  • ... still had an issue with evil monocultures?

Serious question. Drow always bugged me because it never made sense for a whole race to be evil. Drizzt always bugged me because it never made sense that there was only one good drow. The idea that there are other good drow out there actually makes them make a whole lot more sense in my eyes.

Am I really the only one?
Except they're not evil in some cosmic pre-determined sense. Whether we're talking about Gygax's darkling fae in their demon-infested city of Erelhei-Cinlu or the mother-led gangs and kin-strife of Salvatore's Menzoberranzan, there are non-Drizzt examples of drow who aren't irredeemably evil, like the dark elf rogues or Zaknafein. They're evil as cultures go, but that's because they traffic with demons or torture their proto-matrons to go along with the program. It's no different than growing up in the Mafia or some totalitarian state; they're not born evil, they're made evil. Which is actually explored, in far more detail than necessary for the game itself (because in the game they're intended as adversaries), in Homeland.

They are monocultures to some degree, but that's because in both cases our primary lens is a single city-state. But even within those city-states are factions with different agendas.

Opaopajr

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2021, 08:07:00 AM »
I still don't know why anyone is on this ship of fools (WotC's D&D). They get no time, money or energy from me. I mean, you all realize there is no end to this shitshow, reading WotC development announcements is like reading the Fantasy RPG Babylon Bee. It's absurdity masquerading as "D&D".

The D&D you all know and want in publication is dead. We wander the ghost-forests of the old dead-tree editions of yesteryear, still heroic and glorious.

  They're releasing a Strahd von Zarovich Funko Pop.

  The official game is not for us any more. :)

  (Last new WotC product purchased: Spring 2016. Last money given to WotC: Spring 2019.)

Last new WotC product purchased: Magic the Gathering Unglued booster packs, 1998.  8)

My reward has been shelves and shelves of open space during the d20 glut and kicking my "cardboard crack" habit early.  ;)

5e DnD Basic is free, as has been quite a bit of additional .pdfs, and that has been as much as I have been interested in so far.  :)
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Reckall

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Re: No, we weren't stupid for 40 years
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2021, 09:35:32 AM »
D&D is now a cargo-cult effigy of what it once was. I get a kick of how they're destroying it, personally. That the beauty of having *zero* fucks to give about WotC or any D&D zombie edition beyond 2e.

Personally, I loved BECMI and 1E. 2E was... dunno. I didn't really see all these "improvements". They succumbed to the "Satanism!" moral panic (which made some of their "historical" supplements risible) and, generally speaking, I felt it to be strangely anemic (as I found anemic, for example, the original FR Grey Box; I know that many loved it for the possibility to creatively fill the blanks, but, by then, I could just create my own world and fill its blanks just fine). D&D lost me during the 2E era.

Then I played "Planescape: Torment" and, amazed, I bought everything Planescape for a bunch of peanuts. I then started a 2E campaign set in Al-Qadim with a strong PS emphasis. When 3.5E came out I put my nose into the Player's Handbook and I loved what I saw. We switched from 2E to 3.5E (thanks to the fact that the Al-Qadim "book" was closed, and we were starting a "flashback" to the times when Myth Drannor was falling, with other characters). It was nice, when a female player of mine said "I want to play an Inquisitor", to find the "Inquisitor" prestige class in the books...

And the base book alone of the FR 3E leaves in the dust the previous efforts. Sorry, but it is the way I see it.

My experience with 4E was buying the two FR books while I was vacationing in Washington DC - only to leave them in a bin at the airport when I came back. I then played a couple of times and I found that the "cool attitude" of the game was anything but. And the combats (because in 4E there was this obsession about miniatures and combats) were just

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING

I then bought the 3 base books for 5E, liked them and then gifted them to a friend's daughter. I hear that they had a great time for a while.

So, to me, as I often said, D&D is either BECMI or 3/3.5E - the latter with the best previous editions had to offer. Sure, I'm no more 14 years old, and today I feel that with CoC I express more the feelings of my age. Yet, I still love D&D - and, of course, I play it the way I want.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.