Quick comment.

When we came out with the leathered Aces and Eights core rule book it ran about 70 bucks. We got a crap load of complaints that it was too expensive. A few weeks later it sold out.

When it came time to reprint we decided to do a softcover version and another printing of the hardcover/premium book.

Well the hard core book is about to sell out again. We still have a LOT of the softcovers.

So even after giving consumers both options (expensive and easy on the wallet) the more expensive books moved faster.

Incidentally the softcover books are exactly like the hardcovers (full color throughout) except for the hc of course.

Quote from: JollyRB;334847Quick comment.

When we came out with the leathered Aces and Eights core rule book it ran about 70 bucks. We got a crap load of complaints that it was too expensive. A few weeks later it sold out.

When it came time to reprint we decided to do a softcover version and another printing of the hardcover/premium book.

Well the hard core book is about to sell out again. We still have a LOT of the softcovers.

So even after giving consumers both options (expensive and easy on the wallet) the more expensive books moved faster.

Incidentally the softcover books are exactly like the hardcovers (full color throughout) except for the hc of course.

Some of us "interested parties" never even heard about the softcover. I'm curious about the SC A&8, but have never seen it, and until today, hadn't heard it existed.

Quote from: JollyRB;334847We got a crap load of complaints that it was too expensive. A few weeks later it sold out.

Reminds of many conversations that went like this:

THURSDAY

Q: Are you going to Big Movie XYZ in the theater?
A: No way, wait for DVD.  Movies are too expensive.  Why pay $12 when you can just wait for NetFlix?  Plus going to theaters sucks.

NEXT MONDAY

Q: Did you see Big Movie XYZ?
A: Hell yeah, in IMAX!  Even got popcorn.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who refuses to pay 60 bucks for a book of any kind.  Give me a soft cover, black and white art, functional product without all the bells and whistles, and you've got a sale.  Even though I knew my group would never be playing Hackmaster Basic, I sprung for it anyway at 20 bucks.  I'm never going to pay 60 bucks for an rpg, ever.  I don't care how good the quality is or if it's made from human skin.  I want a book I can spill beer and cheetos on and not have a cow over it.  60 bucks is like 3 lap dances!

Quote from: RPGPundit;334454So, who's more to blame here: RPG fans who do not want to pay what RPG companies are asking, or RPG companies that make overproduced overpriced games knowing that they'll sell just enough of them to keep themselves going, even if that means losing some gamers?

Blame for what?

If a consumer is unwilling to pay for a product at a given price, that isn't his fault; it's his preference.  If an expensive book is selling and making a profit, then it isn't overpriced, as far as the market is concerned (even if individual consumers find it too expensive).

It sounds like you're mainly concerned about "losing gamers" even if the consumers that are buying are happy, and the producers of product are happy.  The market has a beautiful way to address such a concern: produce lower cost products and see if it your assumptions are correct (i.e. that lower priced products would mean more gamers, and that there is a segment of the market which has desires that aren't being met by the current set of products).

Quote from: JRR;334835Except that while the game books have quadrupled in price, my salary has not increased by a factor of 4.  Of course, I wasn't working in 74, but by the early 80s I was.

Play with this: http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

Bear in mind that what you were making in 1983 or whatever was probably an entry-level job--if anything you should probably be comparing your parents' income at the time with what you make now (adjusted for inflation).

Quote from: RPGPundit;334772Obviously some people are going to pay. Let's say there's a trait: fanaticism; the higher one's fanaticism, the more one will pay.

So gaming company X will charge $50 for a highly produced book. Out of 10000 people who are gamers, 5000 will say "we won't buy that!" but the other 5000 have enough fanaticism that they will, and Company X will still get a bigger profit doing that than selling 10000 copies of a $20 book.
So they do it, and we lose 5000 gamers.

Next time around, they charge $100. Of the 5000 gamers left, only 2500 have enough fanaticism to pay, but it still works out for gaming company X. The hobby keeps shrinking, and more and more exclusive "quality" books are made for a smaller and smaller base of increasingly fanatical gamers.

RPGpundit

Ah, I see, so this post has nothing to do with capitalism or a free market.

It isn't that people aren't buying books you think are too expensive.

It's that they ARE.

So, what, companies should only make books at prices YOU want to pay?

Give me a break.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;334879Play with this: http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

Bear in mind that what you were making in 1983 or whatever was probably an entry-level job--if anything you should probably be comparing your parents' income at the time with what you make now (adjusted for inflation).

How about a good consistent measure: Median Income by year for four person families.

Year: Median$ 1974$CPI__ 1974$GDPD_ 1974$GDPPC 1974$UnSkW
2005: $67,019 $16,928.05 $20,550.71 $11,003.66 $17,390.31
2000: $62,228 $17,826.41 $21,525.37 $12,380.03 $18,345.28
1995: $49,687 $16,083.07 $18,686.25 $12,523.61 $17,400.38
1990: $41,451 $15,644.82 $17,604.37 $12,533.25 $16,820.56
1985: $32,777 $15,026.85 $16,322.49 $12,994.31 $15,485.45
1980: $24,332 $14,570.25 $15,625.15 $13,932.27 $14,667.11
1975: $15,848 $14,520.47 $14,479.13 $14,651.95 $14,591.85
1974: $14,747 $14,747.00 $14,747.00 $14,747.00 $14,747.00

Median$ income in dollars of that year.
1974$CPI: converted to 1974 US$ by using the consumer price index
1974$GDPD: Converted using the GDP deflator (a generous converter)
1974$GDPPC: Converted using the GDP per capita (a stingy converter)
1974$UnSkW: converted by unskilled wage. (A moderate conversion)
converter: http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/uscompare/result.php
Data: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/4person.html

So, looking at the measures...
Generally, they indicate that yes, the buying power is up for the median income. By the GDP per capita measure, we make less as a fraction of the GDP per capita than was true in 1974... by the other measures, we're slightly better off to significantly better off.

Using a comparison, going the other way: the $35 T&T boxed set of 2005 should have cost (same columns)
Year_ CPI___ GDPD__ GDPPC_ UnSkWg
2005: $35.00 $35.00 $35.00 $35.00
2000: $30.86 $31.03 $28.88 $30.81
1995: $27.31 $28.54 $22.80 $25.93
1990: $23.42 $25.27 $19.01 $22.38
1985: $19.28 $21.55 $14.50 $19.22
1980: $14.76 $16.71 $10.04 $15.07
1975: _$9.65 $11.75 _$6.22 _$9.86
1974: _$8.84 $10.73 _$5.75 _$9.08

Quote from: aramis;334948How about a good consistent measure: Median Income by year for four person families.

Year: Median$ 1974$CPI__ 1974$GDPD_ 1974$GDPPC 1974$UnSkW
2005: $67,019 $16,928.05 $20,550.71 $11,003.66 $17,390.31

::Snort:: $65K?  Must be nice. The median income where I live is only half that. The current median income where I lived most of my life is only $42K.

I'm wondering if income by family over time is a consistent measure.  For example, I would expect that there is a greater percentage of families with two sources of income (i.e. both parents work) in 2005 vs. 1974.  That could skew the numbers.

Quote from: aramis;334873Some of us "interested parties" never even heard about the softcover. I'm curious about the SC A&8, but have never seen it, and until today, hadn't heard it existed.

Well, you can see it HERE.  

Right after I read through this thread, I came across this thread at rpgnet. It's about what people want from 3rd party 4e publishers, and one dude wrote this:

"I might buy a reasonably priced, good quality scenario or adventure.

I'm almost certainly not going to buy a book of feats, classes, monsters, powers or the like unless the production values and quality of the content are just amazing beyond comprehension."


So, you know...there you go.

For me, a b&w softcover full of half-assed art is ok as long as I enjoy the actual game (or supplement, adventure, etc). Production values are cake icing.

Chalk me down as one of the people who prefers an inexpensive black & white softcover over an expensive hardback with all of the extras. The fancy stuff is nice, but I'd rather be able to get more material for my money than have it look super pretty.

Once you start using the books to actually play with, they are likely to take some abuse and start to look less appealing anyway. I'm wondering how large of a segment the collectors who don't usually use the books to game with are. It's kinda sad, but it almost seems as if they are the majority since the fancy books with a higher price tag seem to be geared more towards them.

I do think expensive books are making the hobby less appealing to younger gamers interested in trying it out. With fancy $60+ books they aren't even going to test the waters. The standard nickel and dime supplement treadmill they are looking at after the initial buy in makes it even less appealing.

Not sure that you can blame the RPG companies or the RPG fans more for this. It's a bit of both and seems more like a snake eating it's own tail.

Quote from: RandallS;334956::Snort:: $65K?  Must be nice. The median income where I live is only half that. The current median income where I lived most of my life is only $42K.

It varies by region, but it did in 1975, too. In the interim some regions have done better than others; nevertheless I bet you'll find that game books have stayed about as affordable everywhere.

I do feel like today's prices are high but I'm thinking maybe that's because games were one of the few things I bought for myself as a kid. So I'm actually aware of the change in dollar amounts.

Quote from: JollyRB;334847Well the hard core book is about to sell out again. We still have a LOT of the softcovers.

What were the respective print runs like? Why would people buy a softcover if they'd already purchased the hardcover? How were they told the softcover was out?

Seanchai