This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: No racist characters allowed  (Read 9583 times)

kidkaos2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • k
  • Posts: 48
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2021, 12:12:45 PM »

But you've leapt from "X game sucks" to "no game should ever restrict the personality of PCs" -- which I think is an unwarranted leap. Specifically, your claim here:

it strikes me as unethical for a roleplaying game designer to tell his customers that they aren't allowed to play characters with certain personality traits and/or aren't allowed to have their characters engage in certain behaviors.
I never said "no game should ever restrict the personality of PCs" and in fact I said the opposite and even gave the example of Pendragon where I explicitly approved including personality rules for PCs. 

As a game author don't tell people how to play their characters based on your personal morality.  That was my point. 

Don't make a game set in 1776 and then make it against the rules to play characters that are authentic to 1776.  That's it.  That's my point.  I think it's unethical - not a criminal offense or anything - but I just find it  philosophically unethical for a game designer to attempt to control what sorts of characters players create based not on the structure of the game or on the game's setting, but instead based purely on that designer's personal sense of morality.  The designer here is saying we're going to play a game set in 1776 but instead of playing characters authentic to the setting, I want you to only play characters who have personality traits that align my view of what is good and proper as a progressive in 2021. 

It would be like me making a game about bolsheviks in the Russian Revolution but then saying I don't like communism so your characters can't be communists.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 12:28:13 PM by kidkaos2 »

kidkaos2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • k
  • Posts: 48
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2021, 12:26:16 PM »
I don't recall the d12 version of CG having these issues.

Is there something mechanical (besides them saying no) that would prevent me from house ruling it to be more realistic?

If I remember correctly Renaissance D100 you have to pick period appropriate beliefs.

How do authors plan to enforce all this stuff.
There is nothing mechanical about it.  As I said in my original post, I am curious about what people think about the ethics of what the designer did.  It's purely a philosophy of game design question. 

MiiCharacter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • M
  • Posts: 1
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2021, 04:56:54 PM »
Greetings!

Roll up a dashing, uber-Alpha masculine bastard that is a total Imperialist, Colonizing, misogynistic, and racist monster. Watch the fun unfold! *Laughing* Go forth and let the party dominate and plough through every sacred cow and special snow-flake icon that the game has established. Keep some cold beer handy, and light up some good cigars along the way. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


Wotc won't approve of that 🙄

But they would allow it if you were a Haitian Colonizer (non-european). 😂

Donahue82

  • Newbie
  • *
  • D
  • Posts: 7
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2021, 10:56:50 PM »
Guess it comes down to how much I like the system and setting. If I like the system so long as the company hasn't gone so far around the corner that I dislike them I would ignore their stupidity and play/run the way I want to.

That being said, that kinda message and such is a really big flag black flag about it.


I suppose in the end, the people who like to push that crap would just say "its not for you" but they are also the people who would call me all kinds of vile things with no self awareness.

shoplifter

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2021, 04:48:34 PM »
So I ended up getting a very heavily discounted copy (so sorry your system based entirely on stolen mechanics won't get you paid much at all for my copy Daniel) because of my love for Colonial Gothic. Page xix of the Preamble would be where the text in question lies.

For the sake of discussion, I will provide it here:

Quote
No Discrimination

Let us be clear: Flames of Freedom is not a tabletop role-playing game where you will discriminate against women, practice slavery and indentured servitude, slaughter innocent people or 'tame the wilderness' of Indigenous Nations. It is a game where people come together to fend off a secret war that took root long before the American Revolutionary War. In it, you are a person fighting against unseen powers which mean harm to every person. It is also a game where you'll blaze your own path, free from outdated thinking. History informs the story, but we do not mean it to be entirely historically accurate. It is up to the gaming group to decide how strictly it will hew to history. Everyone should be a part of this decision, and it should be a unanimous one.



This game does not endorse racial or gender discrimination based on differences in the period. Regardless of their identity, there are no mechanical, intellectual, physical, emotional or spiritual distinctions between women, men, intersex, agender, non-binary and transgender characters. That said, people relate differently to one another, and there is no reason to ignore difference because the game world does not embrace discrimination as its real world counterpart.

any typos mine

It then goes on to have a consent agreement paragraph and directs you to the website for SAFETY TOOLS.



So I *think* that it's trying to straddle the line here, telling you that's not how the game is intended to be played by sticking to historical norms rather than telling you outright that you may not do it, but I could be giving it an incredibly charitable reading. It's certainly dangerously close to a complete forbiddance of playing characters we would consider to be distasteful or abhorrent based on today's norms. Characters that do have value in exploring in terms of a roleplaying game set during that period.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 05:02:21 PM by shoplifter »

Shasarak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4032
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2021, 05:16:29 PM »
Quote
Regardless of their identity, there are no mechanical, intellectual, physical, emotional or spiritual distinctions between women, men, intersex, agender, non-binary and transgender characters.

That sounds like something that someone who has never met men and women before would say.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

SHARK

  • The Great Shark Hope
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5039
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2021, 07:15:22 PM »
Greetings!

Yea, cast such pernicious garbage into the flames!

That paragraph alone would have me gleefully spraying it down with lighter fluid, and striking the match!

Fuck them, and fuck that company that published such garbage.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6164
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2021, 08:09:34 PM »
Well it doesn't help their definition of "racism" isn't even real.

To this date, despite my genocidal campaigns against the Orcs, no real Orc has ever actually suffered.

Wntrlnd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • W
  • Posts: 180
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2021, 08:14:57 PM »
Quote
Regardless of their identity, there are no mechanical, intellectual, physical, emotional or spiritual distinctions between women, men, intersex, agender, non-binary and transgender characters.



As much as I disdain the Last Jedi, at least it gave us this quote that I find suitable.


rytrasmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1075
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2021, 10:07:23 AM »
So I ended up getting a very heavily discounted copy (so sorry your system based entirely on stolen mechanics won't get you paid much at all for my copy Daniel) because of my love for Colonial Gothic. Page xix of the Preamble would be where the text in question lies.

For the sake of discussion, I will provide it here:

Quote
No Discrimination

Let us be clear: Flames of Freedom is not a tabletop role-playing game where you will discriminate against women, practice slavery and indentured servitude, slaughter innocent people or 'tame the wilderness' of Indigenous Nations. It is a game where people come together to fend off a secret war that took root long before the American Revolutionary War. In it, you are a person fighting against unseen powers which mean harm to every person. It is also a game where you'll blaze your own path, free from outdated thinking. History informs the story, but we do not mean it to be entirely historically accurate. It is up to the gaming group to decide how strictly it will hew to history. Everyone should be a part of this decision, and it should be a unanimous one.



This game does not endorse racial or gender discrimination based on differences in the period. Regardless of their identity, there are no mechanical, intellectual, physical, emotional or spiritual distinctions between women, men, intersex, agender, non-binary and transgender characters. That said, people relate differently to one another, and there is no reason to ignore difference because the game world does not embrace discrimination as its real world counterpart.

any typos mine

It then goes on to have a consent agreement paragraph and directs you to the website for SAFETY TOOLS.



So I *think* that it's trying to straddle the line here, telling you that's not how the game is intended to be played by sticking to historical norms rather than telling you outright that you may not do it, but I could be giving it an incredibly charitable reading. It's certainly dangerously close to a complete forbiddance of playing characters we would consider to be distasteful or abhorrent based on today's norms. Characters that do have value in exploring in terms of a roleplaying game set during that period.

I don't know what's worse about Flames of Freedom, the Saturday morning cartoon version of history or the idiotic statements regarding identity/diversity. It's just gross.
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry

Ghostmaker

  • Chlorine trifluoride
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4013
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2021, 10:13:07 AM »
Quote
Regardless of their identity, there are no mechanical, intellectual, physical, emotional or spiritual distinctions between women, men, intersex, agender, non-binary and transgender characters.

That sounds like something that someone who has never met men and women before would say.
>mechanical
>physical

BZZZT. Daniel should read up on forensic anthropology and how they are able to determine gender via bone examination. Science fail.

>intellectual
>emotional

Yes, because men and women are well known for thinking the same ways and not seeing things differently. Jesus Christ, I honestly thinks this guy doesn't know any women beyond a polite, distant interaction.

>spiritual

Kind of out of my field of experience. Consult a priest. Although as I recall the Christian theology is that men and women will enter into Heaven, there's no separate entrances.

Habitual Gamer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • H
  • Posts: 130
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2021, 03:24:20 PM »
Quote
Regardless of their identity, there are no mechanical, intellectual, physical, emotional or spiritual distinctions between women, men, intersex, agender, non-binary and transgender characters.

So there's no more reason to have Gender Studies classes, because there's no distinctions between them? 

For someone trying to virtue signal how inclusive he is, he sounds more like he wants to wash away all of these gender identities and pretend they don't exist.  "Why does Daniel Fox want women and trans people to not be recognized?"

(and this is why Daniel Fox only writes things other people already wrote)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 05:13:52 PM by Habitual Gamer »

GriswaldTerrastone
BANNED

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 201
  • BANNED
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2021, 04:58:22 PM »
On the one hand, there is no difference.

On the other we have Critical race Theory, Gender Study courses, etc. Does this mean Black Lives Matter is a total hoax, then?


They set a game in the 18th century, yet are supposed to act like it was 2021. Why not just set it in 2021, or some alternate world?


This is yet another effort to turn humanity into a moronic grey mass.

Or am I missing something here?


The more I read this sort of thing, the more Ayundell and anything else I've ever created remains exactly the way it is.
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

Habitual Gamer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • H
  • Posts: 130
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2021, 05:19:46 PM »
On the one hand, there is no difference.

On the other we have Critical race Theory, Gender Study courses, etc. Does this mean Black Lives Matter is a total hoax, then?

To be fair, he never mentions race.  Likely because this is 2021 and not 2020, and it's okay to ignore black people again.  Plus, orcs and drow don't have to be evil anymore, so the problem of black representation in D&D is being worked on.

Wntrlnd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • W
  • Posts: 180
Re: No racist characters allowed
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2021, 01:53:04 PM »
If we want to be fair to Daniel Fox, maybe he meant that there are no differences in the game regarding attributes and character classes the character is allowed to play as.

Still, that is a bit boring mindset. Part of playing a character of a certain gender is to embrace, or break, the stereotype associated with it.

Once I played a -I guess it would be called a genderfluid- character who used magic to transform between male and female forms depending on how he/she felt at the time. As a man I played him as a introverted emotionally cold rational logical thinker who preferred ranged weapons and used magic to boost his weapon.
As a woman I played her as a extroverted charismatic, funny flirty tease who in combat used her magic to buff up her attributes and fight in melee.

The character was brought up and trained as a spy/assassin since birth and had been able to change sex since puberty. Because it is a great ability to infiltrate somewhere. Due to brainwashing and emotional trauma, he/she no longer remembered what sex he/she was originally born with. When the magic wore off, the character returned to a sexless, androgynus, infertile body.

I don't know if that gives me, or removes, Woke points.