Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:24:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 25, 2021, 03:18:08 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:14:01 PM

Quote from: RandyB on March 25, 2021, 03:00:15 PM
Overall, this is where cyberpunk slips into gritty transhumanism. Nothing wrong with that, just a specific direction for a setting.

What do you mean? Cyberpunk IS gritty transhumanism.

I thought the line was (in part) determined by whether you have to give something up (e.g., "humanity") to gain beyond-human abilities. Most cyberpunk has enhancements with a cost (beyond money & time) while in most transhumanist stories, enhancements have no cost (beyond money & time).

Alita Battle Angel is it cyberpunk or transhumanism by that standard?

Also, what's grittier than loosing your "humanity" to become a better lackey for your corporate masters?

Cyberpunk is gritty. No argument there.

The difference between cyberpunk and transhumanism is that cyberpunk is often about dehumanization, whether by indifferent corps and governments, or by increasing amounts of cybernetics separating you from the human you once were. Transhumanism is a portmanteau of "transcending human" - successfully transcending humanity to become more than/better than. And the tech involved is different from the metal and chrome of classic cyberpunk.

There are a lot of similarities. But cyberpunk, thematically, is less about the opportunities of transcending human limits, and more about the dangers of falling into dehumanization. Gritty transhumanism would offer transcendence with a price, while cyberpunk offers survival at a price. The difference is subtle.

Quote from: RandyB on March 25, 2021, 04:10:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:24:03 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 25, 2021, 03:18:08 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:14:01 PM

Quote from: RandyB on March 25, 2021, 03:00:15 PM
Overall, this is where cyberpunk slips into gritty transhumanism. Nothing wrong with that, just a specific direction for a setting.

What do you mean? Cyberpunk IS gritty transhumanism.

I thought the line was (in part) determined by whether you have to give something up (e.g., "humanity") to gain beyond-human abilities. Most cyberpunk has enhancements with a cost (beyond money & time) while in most transhumanist stories, enhancements have no cost (beyond money & time).

Alita Battle Angel is it cyberpunk or transhumanism by that standard?

Also, what's grittier than loosing your "humanity" to become a better lackey for your corporate masters?

Cyberpunk is gritty. No argument there.

The difference between cyberpunk and transhumanism is that cyberpunk is often about dehumanization, whether by indifferent corps and governments, or by increasing amounts of cybernetics separating you from the human you once were. Transhumanism is a portmanteau of "transcending human" - successfully transcending humanity to become more than/better than. And the tech involved is different from the metal and chrome of classic cyberpunk.

There are a lot of similarities. But cyberpunk, thematically, is less about the opportunities of transcending human limits, and more about the dangers of falling into dehumanization. Gritty transhumanism would offer transcendence with a price, while cyberpunk offers survival at a price. The difference is subtle.

Right, there's no transcendance in my setting tho (you could house rule it in tho), there's no heroes, there's only the lesser of two evils and surviving to see another day.

But, to me anyway, it seems silly not to include some Biopunk, and including it gives the player more customization options. You're a NuGene Samurai or a Cat/Human splicer Infiltrator or a human with some pheromone splices Face.

IMHO the Biopunk gives many advantages and some disadvantages too, what with it not being reversible?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:24:03 PMAlita Battle Angel is it cyberpunk or transhumanism by that standard?

Man is that an interesting question....The early parts on earth are punky. Afterwards, it turns into Dystopian (Ish) Sci-Fi.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:14:01 PM

Quote from: RandyB on March 25, 2021, 03:00:15 PM
Overall, this is where cyberpunk slips into gritty transhumanism. Nothing wrong with that, just a specific direction for a setting.

What do you mean? Cyberpunk IS gritty transhumanism.

Depends on the cyberpunk. Some have little in the way of cybernetics other than drouds or net-jacks. The rest go all the way to to brain in a machine or just mind in a machine. Or like Chromesome, extensive biomodding.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:21:41 PM
Thanks, lets see if you like this

Android/Simulant : Mechanical or biological machines with free will. both are made.
Human : The poor, who can't afford to get upgrades or a cult?
Cyborg : Those who got chrome upgrades
Splicer : Those who got animal genes spliced into themselves
NuGene : Those who got their human DNA modified to gain X upgrade. Vat grown
Mutant : Those born with a mutation either from non-mutant or mutant parents. Mutations can be either advantageous or disadvantageous.

7 "races" total. You can start as a Human and buy your upgrades into Cyborg or Splicer, NuGene/Android/Simulant are manufactured and Mutants are born.

As for the upgrades, the less obvious the more expensive. But funny enough there're those who want to look chromed or spliced and not because of the price.

Only exception to this are purely cosmetic upgrades, those are cheaper since you get no advantage from them.

Mechanically, what is the effect of the "race" distinction? I would think two different cyborgs probably each have more similarity to a human than to each other.

Suppose I have a character who is human, but then he gets an upgrade and becomes a cyborg. Is that any different from, say, the Cyberpunk RPG or Shadowrun, which don't define "cyborg" as a race?

Quote from: jhkim on March 25, 2021, 06:41:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:21:41 PM
Thanks, lets see if you like this

Android/Simulant : Mechanical or biological machines with free will. both are made.
Human : The poor, who can't afford to get upgrades or a cult?
Cyborg : Those who got chrome upgrades
Splicer : Those who got animal genes spliced into themselves
NuGene : Those who got their human DNA modified to gain X upgrade. Vat grown
Mutant : Those born with a mutation either from non-mutant or mutant parents. Mutations can be either advantageous or disadvantageous.

7 "races" total. You can start as a Human and buy your upgrades into Cyborg or Splicer, NuGene/Android/Simulant are manufactured and Mutants are born.

As for the upgrades, the less obvious the more expensive. But funny enough there're those who want to look chromed or spliced and not because of the price.

Only exception to this are purely cosmetic upgrades, those are cheaper since you get no advantage from them.

Mechanically, what is the effect of the "race" distinction? I would think two different cyborgs probably each have more similarity to a human than to each other.

Suppose I have a character who is human, but then he gets an upgrade and becomes a cyborg. Is that any different from, say, the Cyberpunk RPG or Shadowrun, which don't define "cyborg" as a race?

Still working on it, have been thinking that Cyborg and Splicers might not be a "race" but something "races" might choose to become.

Which is why I think some "races" should be barred from certain augmentations.

But this is still very much a WIP, so things might change.

As for the difference between a human cyborg and a mutant cyborg I guess the answer is obvious, maybe that's the way it should go.

It all depends and things will change a lot before I'm happy with it.

What I want to avoid is recreating the Dwarves a la Shadowrun and having also magic and shit.

Lets see how you guys like this:

Android: Mechanical machines with free will.
+1 INT +1CON +1STR +1DEX -2CHA -2WIS
Can't take any biological augmentation

Human : The poor, who can't afford to get upgrades or a cult?
+1 to any two attributes
Can take any biological/mechanical augmentation

Mutant : Those born with a mutation either from non-mutant or mutant parents. Mutations can be either advantageous or disadvantageous.
Roll on the table to get the modifiers
Can't take any biological augmentation

NuGene : Those who got their human DNA modified to gain X upgrade. Vat grown
Choose two: +2STR +2DEX +2CON
Choose two: -1INT -1WIS -1CHA
Can't take any biological augmentation

Simulant : Biological machines with free will.
+1 INT +1CON +1STR +1DEX Choose one: -1CHA -1WIS
Can't take  any biological/mechanical augmentation

Augmentations: Besides the price in credits there's also the pricein humanity and the risk of rejection.

Biological - Splicer : Those who got animal genes spliced into themselves

Mechanical - Cyborg : Those who got chrome upgrades

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:21:41 PM
Thanks, lets see if you like this

Android/Simulant : Mechanical or biological machines with free will. both are made.
Human : The poor, who can't afford to get upgrades or a cult?
Cyborg : Those who got chrome upgrades
Splicer : Those who got animal genes spliced into themselves
NuGene : Those who got their human DNA modified to gain X upgrade. Vat grown
Mutant : Those born with a mutation either from non-mutant or mutant parents. Mutations can be either advantageous or disadvantageous.

7 "races" total. You can start as a Human and buy your upgrades into Cyborg or Splicer, NuGene/Android/Simulant are manufactured and Mutants are born.

As for the upgrades, the less obvious the more expensive. But funny enough there're those who want to look chromed or spliced and not because of the price.

Only exception to this are purely cosmetic upgrades, those are cheaper since you get no advantage from them.

That sounds good. I'm guessing Android is the term for mechanical ones and Simulant for biotech, but they're essentially the same thing conceptually and in game mechanics?

I wonder what causes non-mutant parents to birth mutants in your world. Is it that they mix with a mutants or is there something that causes normal human fetuses to develop mutations?

RE: The side discussion on Transhumanism, Transhumanism itself is a philosophy that advocates for human modification using various types of theoretical technologies (some of which are already being developed) that may exist as a feature in various works of fiction, rather than being a genre onto itself. While Cyberpunk is the most common type of genre featuring that type of technology or ideas. You could take those sort of concepts in a different direction from "High-Tech, Low-Life", I suppose, but transhumanism itself isn't really a genre, but more like an idea.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2021, 08:24:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:21:41 PM
Thanks, lets see if you like this

Android/Simulant : Mechanical or biological machines with free will. both are made.
Human : The poor, who can't afford to get upgrades or a cult?
Cyborg : Those who got chrome upgrades
Splicer : Those who got animal genes spliced into themselves
NuGene : Those who got their human DNA modified to gain X upgrade. Vat grown
Mutant : Those born with a mutation either from non-mutant or mutant parents. Mutations can be either advantageous or disadvantageous.

7 "races" total. You can start as a Human and buy your upgrades into Cyborg or Splicer, NuGene/Android/Simulant are manufactured and Mutants are born.

As for the upgrades, the less obvious the more expensive. But funny enough there're those who want to look chromed or spliced and not because of the price.

Only exception to this are purely cosmetic upgrades, those are cheaper since you get no advantage from them.

That sounds good. I'm guessing Android is the term for mechanical ones and Simulant for biotech, but they're essentially the same thing conceptually and in game mechanics?

I wonder what causes non-mutant parents to birth mutants in your world. Is it that they mix with a mutants or is there something that causes normal human fetuses to develop mutations?

RE: The side discussion on Transhumanism, Transhumanism itself is a philosophy that advocates for human modification using various types of theoretical technologies (some of which are already being developed) that may exist as a feature in various works of fiction, rather than being a genre onto itself. While Cyberpunk is the most common type of genre featuring that type of technology or ideas. You could take those sort of concepts in a different direction from "High-Tech, Low-Life", I suppose, but transhumanism itself isn't really a genre, but more like an idea.

Re Mutants from non-mutant parents: My line of thinking is that the megacorporations don't give a shit about their serfs, so the water, the air and even the food most have access to is contaminated. Maybe even some radiation?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 08:33:56 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2021, 08:24:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:21:41 PM
Thanks, lets see if you like this

Android/Simulant : Mechanical or biological machines with free will. both are made.
Human : The poor, who can't afford to get upgrades or a cult?
Cyborg : Those who got chrome upgrades
Splicer : Those who got animal genes spliced into themselves
NuGene : Those who got their human DNA modified to gain X upgrade. Vat grown
Mutant : Those born with a mutation either from non-mutant or mutant parents. Mutations can be either advantageous or disadvantageous.

7 "races" total. You can start as a Human and buy your upgrades into Cyborg or Splicer, NuGene/Android/Simulant are manufactured and Mutants are born.

As for the upgrades, the less obvious the more expensive. But funny enough there're those who want to look chromed or spliced and not because of the price.

Only exception to this are purely cosmetic upgrades, those are cheaper since you get no advantage from them.

That sounds good. I'm guessing Android is the term for mechanical ones and Simulant for biotech, but they're essentially the same thing conceptually and in game mechanics?

I wonder what causes non-mutant parents to birth mutants in your world. Is it that they mix with a mutants or is there something that causes normal human fetuses to develop mutations?

RE: The side discussion on Transhumanism, Transhumanism itself is a philosophy that advocates for human modification using various types of theoretical technologies (some of which are already being developed) that may exist as a feature in various works of fiction, rather than being a genre onto itself. While Cyberpunk is the most common type of genre featuring that type of technology or ideas. You could take those sort of concepts in a different direction from "High-Tech, Low-Life", I suppose, but transhumanism itself isn't really a genre, but more like an idea.

Re Mutants from non-mutant parents: My line of thinking is that the megacorporations don't give a shit about their serfs, so the water, the air and even the food most have access to is contaminated. Maybe even some radiation?

Figured it might be something like that. In my own setting mutations happen through some sort of selective gene splicing in a lab, so random mutation isn't a possibility outside of mutants of different type (or human and mutants) having children, or an unexpected result coming out of the gene splicing process. But in a world where mutations can happen from some type of "mutagenic substance" it makes sense that spills in the water supply or the soil may cause random mutants to be born out of the normal human population, specially in poor areas.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2021, 08:42:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 08:33:56 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 25, 2021, 08:24:56 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 03:21:41 PM
Thanks, lets see if you like this

Android/Simulant : Mechanical or biological machines with free will. both are made.
Human : The poor, who can't afford to get upgrades or a cult?
Cyborg : Those who got chrome upgrades
Splicer : Those who got animal genes spliced into themselves
NuGene : Those who got their human DNA modified to gain X upgrade. Vat grown
Mutant : Those born with a mutation either from non-mutant or mutant parents. Mutations can be either advantageous or disadvantageous.

7 "races" total. You can start as a Human and buy your upgrades into Cyborg or Splicer, NuGene/Android/Simulant are manufactured and Mutants are born.

As for the upgrades, the less obvious the more expensive. But funny enough there're those who want to look chromed or spliced and not because of the price.

Only exception to this are purely cosmetic upgrades, those are cheaper since you get no advantage from them.

That sounds good. I'm guessing Android is the term for mechanical ones and Simulant for biotech, but they're essentially the same thing conceptually and in game mechanics?

I wonder what causes non-mutant parents to birth mutants in your world. Is it that they mix with a mutants or is there something that causes normal human fetuses to develop mutations?

RE: The side discussion on Transhumanism, Transhumanism itself is a philosophy that advocates for human modification using various types of theoretical technologies (some of which are already being developed) that may exist as a feature in various works of fiction, rather than being a genre onto itself. While Cyberpunk is the most common type of genre featuring that type of technology or ideas. You could take those sort of concepts in a different direction from "High-Tech, Low-Life", I suppose, but transhumanism itself isn't really a genre, but more like an idea.

Re Mutants from non-mutant parents: My line of thinking is that the megacorporations don't give a shit about their serfs, so the water, the air and even the food most have access to is contaminated. Maybe even some radiation?

Figured it might be something like that. In my own setting mutations happen through some sort of selective gene splicing in a lab, so random mutation isn't a possibility outside of mutants of different type (or human and mutants) having children, or an unexpected result coming out of the gene splicing process. But in a world where mutations can happen from some type of "mutagenic substance" it makes sense that spills in the water supply or the soil may cause random mutants to be born out of the normal human population, specially in poor areas.

Exactly, and now you have all the usual human prejudices at play, there are those who fear/hate/despise the mutants for several different reasons, including religious bigotry.

And the Corpos organize mutant hunts, but then again they also organize street urchin hunts, they see everybody else as inferior, not based on race but on class mostly, and since there's no government to punish them, and the corporation doesn't care unless they give it a bad image...

I'll mirror what others have asked.

Why use "race" at all?

As noted. None of these listed are actual races. If that were the case then "people wearing plaid" or "People with tattoos" must be a race too. These are, usually, just augmented humans as it were. Or manufactured beings. Despite how scary they are. I am sorry, but Furbys are not a race.

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2021, 12:22:46 AM
I'll mirror what others have asked.

Why use "race" at all?

As noted. None of these listed are actual races. If that were the case then "people wearing plaid" or "People with tattoos" must be a race too. These are, usually, just augmented humans as it were. Or manufactured beings. Despite how scary they are. I am sorry, but Furbys are not a race.

Feel free to do whatever you like, if you really feel that Androids, Simulants, Mutants and the NuGene are just humans then don't use them.

I'm not telling you you must use them am I?

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2021, 12:22:46 AM
I'll mirror what others have asked.

Why use "race" at all?

As noted. None of these listed are actual races. If that were the case then "people wearing plaid" or "People with tattoos" must be a race too. These are, usually, just augmented humans as it were. Or manufactured beings. Despite how scary they are. I am sorry, but Furbys are not a race.

It's a matter of semantics. Genetically engineered mutants and robots might not be "races" in the technical sense of the word, but they're still different classes of entity (or whatever term you'd prefer), potentially with different traits and capabilities (including ability modifiers and such) for RPG purposes. And the typical term used to referred to those beings within TTRPGs is "race".

I use the term "mutant classifications" in my own setting, because that's what they're called in-game. "Phenotype" might be another likely term within a sci-fi world. But for game purposes they're still essentially the same thing that games like D&D call "races" (or "ancestries" now). Many of the types of entities that Geeky listed are essentially "races" as well. An android is really not a human by any other name, but a humanoid shaped robot with mechanical traits.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 26, 2021, 11:29:08 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2021, 12:22:46 AM
Why use "race" at all?

As noted. None of these listed are actual races. If that were the case then "people wearing plaid" or "People with tattoos" must be a race too. These are, usually, just augmented humans as it were. Or manufactured beings.

It's a matter of semantics. Genetically engineered mutants and robots might not be "races" in the technical sense of the word, but they're still different classes of entity (or whatever term you'd prefer), potentially with different traits and capabilities (including ability modifiers and such) for RPG purposes. And the typical term used to referred to those beings within TTRPGs is "race".

Obviously, that's used in D&D - but I don't see that it's in wide use particularly for sci-fi games. Both D6 and D20 Star Wars use "species" for the different alien species, as does Stars Without Number. Besides the semantics, though, there's a big question about the mechanics. In fantasy, dwarves all have certain features. But in sci-fi, all robots aren't the same. Robots can have vastly different qualities depending on what they were built for.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 07:19:07 PM
Lets see how you guys like this:

Android: Mechanical machines with free will.
+1 INT +1CON +1STR +1DEX -2CHA -2WIS
Can't take any biological augmentation

Human : The poor, who can't afford to get upgrades or a cult?
+1 to any two attributes
Can take any biological/mechanical augmentation

Mutant : Those born with a mutation either from non-mutant or mutant parents. Mutations can be either advantageous or disadvantageous.
Roll on the table to get the modifiers
Can't take any biological augmentation

NuGene : Those who got their human DNA modified to gain X upgrade. Vat grown
Choose two: +2STR +2DEX +2CON
Choose two: -1INT -1WIS -1CHA
Can't take any biological augmentation

Simulant : Biological machines with free will.
+1 INT +1CON +1STR +1DEX Choose one: -1CHA -1WIS
Can't take  any biological/mechanical augmentation

Augmentations: Besides the price in credits there's also the pricein humanity and the risk of rejection.

Biological - Splicer : Those who got animal genes spliced into themselves

Mechanical - Cyborg : Those who got chrome upgrades

I get that you're trying to make these like D&D races, but that doesn't fit the source material to my mind. Different androids, nugenes, and simulants could have very different qualities depending on how and why they were built. A combat android might have great physical ability, while a pleasure android might be weak but high CHA.

It seems like this is trying to make everyone equal, like balanced races in D&D. But particularly within Cyberpunk, one of the themes is that life is not fair. Genetically engineered, cyber-enhanced individuals are better in every way than unenhanced poor people.