Quote from: Zirunel;1133586They were pretty different. But you can plausibly bring them into contact if you like. At contact (first attested in 1526), large capacity cargo balsas were plying the Pacific coast from Lima to Ecuador, and possibly at various times in the precontact period, as far north as Costa Rica, Soconusco, and even western Mexico.

Well there's always Kon Tiki, isn't there? Yes, you are right the reed boats and balsas show very much ocean navigation up and down the South American coast and likely the Central American coast. Even further there is art of Central Andean peoples regularly going to off shore islands to collect seals (particularly for their bezors -- uh, basically a hairball -- assumed for ritual usage) and bird guano, ranging from albatross to penguins (yes, I said penguins... in the tropics). There is plenty of nautical evidence to easily take one's campaign out to sea, the technology is there.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1133588Without question this massive primer on the Central Andes Art (an often forgotten cradle of civilization). It is A LOT of information in surprisingly digestible format, with TONS of mysteries to port wholesale. It starts you off with the major recurring cosmological underpinnings which gird you from Chavín to Inca and paint a truly fascinating world.

The topics of hallucinogenics as ritual cultural adhesion is properly jargonized into entheogenics, and similarly a level of respect is shown throughout all the arts on discussion. It also shows how trade is absolutely essential in a space where three of the harshest climates (coastal desert, tropical jungle, and high altitude mountains) share such a narrow band along the continent. And then the scale of art, cities, and complexity is given the jaw-dropping explanation they deserve to drive home the achievements made.

Bar none, easiest crash course on history, religion, politics, trade, & material culture through a breezy stroll down millennia of art -- in a tiny, tiny book! It also seeds wonders and mysteries ready to port into any campaign from fantasy to mythos investigator. Read it from the library and am kicking myself that this should be in my collection by now.

Happy travels for your kid!


Art of the Andes: From Chavín to Inca (World of Art)
Series: World of Art
Paperback: 248 pages
Publisher: Thames & Hudson; 3 edition (September 10, 2012)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0500204152
ISBN-13: 978-0500204153
Product Dimensions: 6 x 0.7 x 8.3 inches

PS: This should help world building massively, but if you or your kid have any questions feel free to ask. The book does a better job, but if you wanna do something like use quipu (the accounting language of fabric knots) into a fully complex writing system that can have let's say: novels, I say go for it! (I'd assume "spellbooks" in quipu to be a given, personally.)

Chavín iconography is fascinating. Moche is cool and super-informative

Quote from: Opaopajr;1133590Well there's always Kon Tiki, isn't there? Yes, you are right the reed boats and balsas show very much ocean navigation up and down the South American coast and likely the Central American coast. Even further there is art of Central Andean peoples regularly going to off shore islands to collect seals (particularly for their bezors -- uh, basically a hairball -- assumed for ritual usage) and bird guano, ranging from albatross to penguins (yes, I said penguins... in the tropics). There is plenty of nautical evidence to easily take one's campaign out to sea, the technology is there.

Yes, Kon Tiki was specifically based on the Ecuadorian/Peruvian cargo balsas. Heyerdahl just took his in an odd direction!

As far as actual Incans go ...

When I traveled in Peru and visited various Incan ruins, the locals were eager to point out that the tremendous stones used in the building process were set in place by "Cyclopses".

Quote from: Zalman;1133593As far as actual Incans go ...

When I traveled in Peru and visited various Incan ruins, the locals were eager to point out that the tremendous stones used in the building process were set in place by "Cyclopses".

Well if you mean the type of construction in, say, Cusco and Sacsayhuamán, it is often referred to as "cyclopean masonry" ("construcción ciclópea"), so maybe a little misinterpretation happening there!

Quote from: Zirunel;1133598Well if you mean the type of construction in, say, Cusco and Sacsayhuamán, it is often referred to as "cyclopean masonry" ("construcción ciclópea"), so maybe a little misinterpretation happening there!

I'm not sure where you think the misinterpretation is occurring ... where do you think the term came from? I speak fluent Spanish, and I promise you that I was told numerous times with perfect candor that the ruins were built by one-eyed giants (and "obviously", since, according to the tellers of that tale, humans couldn't have possibly done it themselves.)

Of course, the veracity of any particular legend should be wholly irrelevant for the purpose of creating a campaign world -- what matters is the myth itself.

Quote from: Zalman;1133600I'm not sure where you think the misinterpretation is occurring ... where do you think the term came from? I speak fluent Spanish, and I promise you that I was told numerous times with perfect candor that the ruins were built by one-eyed giants (and "obviously", since, according to the tellers of that tale, humans couldn't have possibly done it themselves.)

Of course, the veracity of any particular legend should be wholly irrelevant for the purpose of creating a campaign world -- what matters is the myth itself.

I did not mean to imply the misinterpretation was on your part. But the locals will almost certainly have picked up the jargon, and heard that it is "cyclopean masonry"...And taken it from there.

Oh and where the term comes from is Greece, referring to the massive irregular stones used at Mycenae etc. But it has long since been adopted to refer to the similar Inca construction as well.

EDITED TO ADD: yes, point taken, you can surely run with the myth and use it in an rpg

Quote from: Opaopajr;1133588Without question this massive primer on the Central Andes Art (an often forgotten cradle of civilization). It is A LOT of information in surprisingly digestible format, with TONS of mysteries to port wholesale. It starts you off with the major recurring cosmological underpinnings which gird you from Chavín to Inca and paint a truly fascinating world.

The topics of hallucinogenics as ritual cultural adhesion is properly jargonized into entheogenics, and similarly a level of respect is shown throughout all the arts on discussion. It also shows how trade is absolutely essential in a space where three of the harshest climates (coastal desert, tropical jungle, and high altitude mountains) share such a narrow band along the continent. And then the scale of art, cities, and complexity is given the jaw-dropping explanation they deserve to drive home the achievements made.

Bar none, easiest crash course on history, religion, politics, trade, & material culture through a breezy stroll down millennia of art -- in a tiny, tiny book! It also seeds wonders and mysteries ready to port into any campaign from fantasy to mythos investigator. Read it from the library and am kicking myself that this should be in my collection by now.

Happy travels for your kid!


Art of the Andes: From Chavín to Inca (World of Art)
Series: World of Art
Paperback: 248 pages
Publisher: Thames & Hudson; 3 edition (September 10, 2012)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0500204152
ISBN-13: 978-0500204153
Product Dimensions: 6 x 0.7 x 8.3 inches

PS: This should help world building massively, but if you or your kid have any questions feel free to ask. The book does a better job, but if you wanna do something like use quipu (the accounting language of fabric knots) into a fully complex writing system that can have let's say: novels, I say go for it! (I'd assume "spellbooks" in quipu to be a given, personally.)

And speaking of Chavín, your Incas can harken back to an arcane and mysterious ancestral civilization millennia older, and Chavín is your go-to for that. The roots are a bit more tropical forest flavoured than contemporary Inca were comfortable with, so caiman-gods, harpy-eagle spirits and jaguar shamans are the order of the day. And serpents, of course. All of it ancient, mysterious and outside the Inca comfort zone.

Also, a bit closer to period, maybe throw in the oracle centre and pilgrimage site at Pachacamac. The Incas did conquer it (there is an Incaic compound at Pachacamac) but it was too old and too religiously powerful for them to truly control it, they had to just reach an accommodation. Think the oracle of Delphi for an analogue. Good place to get mysterious divinations done.

Quote from: Zirunel;1133707And speaking of Chavín, your Incas can harken back to an arcane and mysterious ancestral civilization millennia older, and Chavín is your go-to for that. The roots are a bit more tropical forest flavoured than contemporary Inca were comfortable with, so caiman-gods, harpy-eagle spirits and jaguar shamans are the order of the day. And serpents, of course. All of it ancient, mysterious and outside the Inca comfort zone.

Also, a bit closer to period, maybe throw in the oracle centre and pilgrimage site at Pachacamac. The Incas did conquer it (there is an Incaic compound at Pachacamac) but it was too old and too religiously powerful for them to truly control it, they had to just reach an accommodation. Think the oracle of Delphi for an analogue. Good place to get mysterious divinations done.

So the Aztecs/Mayans with a bit of Egyptian in the mix?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1133717So the Aztecs/Mayans with a bit of Egyptian in the mix?

You mean the Chavín part? I guess sort of yes. Chavín would be to the Incas what Olmec would be to the Maya, or what ancient Egypt would be to, say, the British Empire. Ancient, mysterious, somehow scary.

More specifically, I wouldn't say the flavour is ancient Egypt exactly. but you could almost go Cthulhoid with Chavín, except instead of tentacles, everything is fangs. Fangs, fangs, fangs, No matter where you look, you are staring at frickin sharp teeth.

Quote from: jhkim;1133493So my son ran a one-shot adventure set in a fantasy version of the Incan Empire, and now he's thinking of expanding it out to a full-fledged campaign. I've been trying to think of resources to recommend for him, and/or ideas to suggest. I know about The Yaurcoan Empire for Totems of the Dead (Savage Worlds) -- which I just picked up.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/100928/The-Yaurcoan-Empire

But I don't know of much else. The game is very much D&D (5th edition), only lightly re-skinned to fit with Incan traditions. The standard races and classes are all roughly the same, though there are some twists. This was his intro for the one-shot game:



Notably, undead aren't inherently evil in this game - and there are wise mummies and lichs from the past who serve as resources for the present empire.

I'd be especially curious for resources to recommend, but general ideas and reactions would be cool too. (Just no politics.)

Sounds fun!

I think the Maztica blended some elements of Incan civilization with Aztec civilization (which are not related to each other but I can see why they'd choose them to combine).

Quote from: Zirunel;1133707And speaking of Chavín, your Incas can harken back to an arcane and mysterious ancestral civilization millennia older, and Chavín is your go-to for that. The roots are a bit more tropical forest flavoured than contemporary Inca were comfortable with, so caiman-gods, harpy-eagle spirits and jaguar shamans are the order of the day. And serpents, of course. All of it ancient, mysterious and outside the Inca comfort zone.

That's interesting, but it seems tricky to pull off.

Real Incan culture will be mysterious and outside the comfort zone of most of the players. But to the *characters*, the Incan culture is of course familiar and comfortable. In this setting, that's being conveyed partly by having high Tolkienesque fantasy instead of historical accuracy. So like how Rohan and Gondor didn't reflect many ugly historical realities of medieval England, the Solar Empire is a high fantasy empire with mostly good-aligned rulers. This isn't a gritty historical setting, it's high fantasy.

So how would we present Chavín to contrast it with Incan culture, so that Chavín seems mysterious and uncomfortable -- but Incan seems familiar and comfortable?

I'll have to ponder that a bit. Thanks for the ideas.

Quote from: jhkim;1133776That's interesting, but it seems tricky to pull off.

Real Incan culture will be mysterious and outside the comfort zone of most of the players. But to the *characters*, the Incan culture is of course familiar and comfortable. In this setting, that's being conveyed partly by having high Tolkienesque fantasy instead of historical accuracy. So like how Rohan and Gondor didn't reflect many ugly historical realities of medieval England, the Solar Empire is a high fantasy empire with mostly good-aligned rulers. This isn't a gritty historical setting, it's high fantasy.

So how would we present Chavín to contrast it with Incan culture, so that Chavín seems mysterious and uncomfortable -- but Incan seems familiar and comfortable?

I'll have to ponder that a bit. Thanks for the ideas.

You could try adding more fangs. No seriously, if the "modern" setting is a benign high fantasy empire, then make the mysterious ancients darker, maybe even evil (and/or maybe not entirely human). After all,  dangerous arcane knowledge is encoded in their elaborate ancient sculptures if you can only learn how to "read" them. And perhaps the Chavín cult is still secretly a thing somewhere on the fringes of the empire. Maybe way downslope to the East in the steaming jungles of the Amazon, where the cult first began, where the power of the empire barely reaches and where sensible Quechua try never to go.....

Quote from: Mistwell;1133766Sounds fun!

I think the Maztica blended some elements of Incan civilization with Aztec civilization (which are not related to each other but I can see why they'd choose them to combine).

Not really blend culturally as much as allocate the southernmost part of Anchorômé's massive southern peninsula into a very mountainous ersatz Andes region called Lopango, the land of fire. Basically Maztica is the known middle region of the large peninsula reaching south to Katashaka. The Maztica region is cut off by its version of ersatz Central America with a narrow strip of dense jungle and swamp before soaring mountain ranges of Lopango. Maztica also further isolated by the desert of Itzcala from Michaca to the north and the rest of Anchorômé.

Honestly, I strongly recommend the art book. It helps trace threads and that in itself answers your question of how to make Chavín feel uneasily ancient to Incans. Inca is a mountainous empire uniting the jungle and coastal desert into domain, resting upon the cultural foundation of necessary trade and (almost monotheistic, maybe more monomist) sky god/divine tutelage of mountainous revelation (Viracocha & Titicaca) atop the manifold entheogenic mystery cults of several cultures (including Paracas, Sipán, & Nazca) leading back to Chavín.

One could almost stretch the analogy to Christian & Islamic monotheism revelation & trade/military expansion on the ashes of a polytheist "old world." At least, it would be the easiest way for most people to digest the alien mystery of it all quickly. I mean, it sounds like a lot for a kid's campaign, but you do have the advantage that even though 'history does not repeat itself, it often rhymes.' (my apologies to Twain for butchering the quote)