Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;319696I too found the "D&D is stupid" thing glaring after a while, but most of this was purged during 2ed and Revised.  Current WoD is less concerned with what others are doing, and more concerned with doing their thing.  They are firmly entrenched as #2, with no real prospect of moving up to #1, and noone under them really in a position to unseat then as #2 for very long.

Actually, I'd very much doubt that at this point, WW is still number 2 in the industry. Paizo has probably overshadowed them.

QuoteHonestly, White Wolfs strategy and growth cycle is not unlike theRPGsite.

1)  Form in the shadow of a big huge juggernaut in the same industry.
2)  Immediately set about running the big one into the ground by accentuating differences in approach and attracting the pissed off former user base by shitting on said big guy.
3)  Over time, eventually grow big enough and attract enough users that continually shitting on the big one just comes off badly, potentially turns away potential cross-platform users, and just ends up looking pissy and unprofessional, so you ditch it and go your own way, occasionally sniping at a few things across the bow.  Beyond that, theres more than enough original and interesting things to do that you don't want to keep bringing them up in every conversation.  Makes you seem like a one-note pony.

This site was NEVER just an anti-rpg.net site.

Nor is this site's objections to rpg.net's moderation policies some kind of marketing ploy.

RPGPundit

If Paizo isn't already #2, I'm betting they will be shortly after Gen Con.

Quote from: J Arcane;319726Strong words coming from a man who dumped some incoherent missive about beer as his way of resetting the OSR thread back to square one.  

Clearly you've been away from here too long again, and I've been away from RPGnet too long, because you've forgotten who the hell you're speaking to.  When have I ever been known to keep my mouth shut if something is bothering me?

Nothing changes in this world if you sit quietly in a corner and mutter to yourself.

Yeah, that was a mistake.  But I've made up for it.

It was only incoherent if you don't like beer.

If a thread, or type of thread bugs you, why the hell bother?  BBR threads in Tengency bug me for the most part, so I don't bother posting to them.  Nothing changes on the internet no matter what you do.  I hate the fucking cartoon because it gets used as a snarky way to shut down discussion/argument someone doesn't like, though I love xkcd in general, however "Something is WRONG on the internet" is still a decent cautionary tale.

The internet will not change.  You will.  What you say is true, in the REAL WORLD.  Sitting by while bad shit goes down you have it in your power to stop,or at least mitigate, is almost as bad as being the one doing it yourself.  

On the internet, you will bang your head against the Internet Hate Machine, and all you will get in return are bruises on your head and time wasted you can't get back.

Quote from: RPGPundit;319783This site was NEVER just an anti-rpg.net site.

No.  It wasn't before you took over.  After that, it was for a while.  Eventually, it stopped being that.  And the site has been better for it since.

QuoteNor is this site's objections to rpg.net's moderation policies some kind of marketing ploy.

RPGPundit

Maybe not intentionally.  But it certainly served to attract a huge subset of the "pissed off former rpg.net banned assholes" for a while (and thats not saying ALL the banned guys from rpg.net are assholes.  Only the assholes are assholes).

Of course, it couldn't be a "marketing ploy" - you don't make any money.  But it sure did increase traffic.

Nor was White Wolf's.  It was legitimete anger at how the RPG industry was dominated by one type of game and pretty much one genre, and trying to break out of that.  In doing so, they spewed vitriol on the big juggernaut of the industry.  It happens.  Check up linux/Mac/open source boards and you'll see LOADS of Microsoft hatred (course, there is actual reason for that, for the very direct harm MS have done - TSR didn't destroy anyone's bookshelves with poorly edited and playtested material, or caused someone's game notes to become corrupted when they tried to use houserules to play D&D).  Any "underdog" will have a subset of the fan base that hates on the big guys.  Check Toronto Maple Leafs fans who hate Montreal, or Boston Red Sox fans (until they won the series) and Yankees.  Some hate the Yankees more than they cheer for their team.  Ditto Leafs fans.  Some seem to EXIST just to spew bile of Les Habs.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;319897Yeah, that was a mistake.  But I've made up for it.

It was only incoherent if you don't like beer.

I like beer.  It was still incoherent.  The only thing I got out of it was "I didn't read the thread" and "I hate PBR".  

I posted what I said because I meant it, because it was in line with the topic and previous responses as well as others of recent note.  

I think D&D gets far too much weight anymore as it is, without these stupid fucking ENWorld twats insisting on making the board all about them.  

If I'm the lone voice who doesn't want "ENWorld-lite", then so be it, I'm used to that sort of thing, after all, I'm in the US and I believe in universal health care, which apparently makes me a grandma killer.  I'm not so weak a man as to surrender my opinions just because I'm too lazy and thin-skinned to take the flak for them.

I've done some towards creating threads of my own and posting to non-D&D threads, but the fact remains that thanks to the recent flock of sheep, there's a pretty healthy weight of topics towards all things D&D and little else, not least of which because of this sort of armchair analysis from people like the OP.  

I do honestly believe the D20 thing was a fucking mistake, that we let a corporation co-opt our entire hobby for their own ends and pollute the peripheral market with a lot of uncreative rehashes, and that in general, it seems to me like the more weight we give to D&D in the discourse, the less genuinely creative and innovative stuff seems to come along outside of cults like Borgstromancy and the Forge.  

If Wizards is indeed becoming the new TSR, it's about time we fucking treated them like it, and got on with the gaming and made it our own again.

Well, no I hadn't read the thread.  56 pages along at that point.  Even as a teacher in the summer, I don't have that kind of time.  Shouldn't have bothered, and listened to my better judgement against jumping feet first into a huge thread when I hadn't been part of it.  Hard to tell here, as the little pages bar down at the bottom goes to like 3 and then gives you the "jump to last post" button, so it can be hard to tell at first blush how massive a thread is after you jump into the first page.

Other than the ENworld stuff, I disagree.  I think having that universal mechanic helped a lot of people get their foot in the gaming door by making the barrioer to entry easier, since you didn't have to come up with a whole set of mechanics to start.  I think it really helped give the industry a kick in the pants, and while most of it was shite, it gave people an entry point, and easy way of jumping into the hobby, in a way that hasn't existed before.  It wasn't all good, certainly, and there were indeed downsides to d20, but I think it wasn't a BAD thing, overall.  Now that D&D has pretty much moved past it, people are picking through the bones of 3ed for the GOOD ideas, and discarding the rest.  I've seen some really neat takes on D&D that involve incorporating aspects of all editions to make an Uber-D&D that really looks compelling.

But theres other games, yes.  I myself am starting to suffer D&D burnout as that's all the majority of my group wants to play.

Quote from: J Arcane;319905If I'm the lone voice who doesn't want "ENWorld-lite", then so be it,

*cough*

Quote from: One Horse Town;319923*cough*

Well, I was speaking hypothetically there.  I appreciate that you and I are of two minds about the recent trends.  

Quote from: J Arcane;319905If Wizards is indeed becoming the new TSR, it's about time we fucking treated them like it, and got on with the gaming and made it our own again.

If Wizards of the Coast suffers the same fate as TSR, their Hasbro overlords may possibly cancel the D&D product line and shelve the intellectual property, or outright sell it to another company who has the cash.  (Who knows?  It could be an MMO company buying D&D.  White Wolf was bought up by an MMO company a few yars ago).

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;319061Hey, I wrote GAMERS so I'm trying.

I even wrote up a systemless modern espionage adventure for David R, an adventure you'd have a hard time succeeding with if you wouldn't take an "old school" approach where player smarts were more important than character skills.

Over at Citadel of Chaos Stormy is trying to make the old school thing about more than just D&D.

People are trying, you know. You just have to go looking.

Thanks for the push, Kyle!

For J Arcane:  If you have d6 stuff you want to talk about or write, stop on over.  d6 Open has its pedigree in Paranoia, Ghostbusters and WEG Star Wars, vintage games all.

Quote from: J Arcane;319905If Wizards is indeed becoming the new TSR, it's about time we fucking treated them like it, and got on with the gaming and made it our own again.

Wait, wait.  We need a crowd for this.

Gather round, folks!  Are you prepared for the greatest, the best, the most bald, blatant and self-defeating act of hypocrisy in the history of roleplaying games?

I present to you... J ARCANE!  Yes, ladies and gents - the J Arcane who spits venom at the OSR for its variety, independance, and wild creativity!  The J Arcane who champions whatever bland, steaming pile of shit currently has the D&D logo floating in it!

Watch him in his greatest performance yet - TELLING OTHER PEOPLE THAT THEY SHOULD MAKE THE GAME THEIR OWN!

Holy Jesus thrice-damned fucking Christ.  I've seen it all now.
Posted in Mobile Mode

See this is the trouble who just see someone as being against their pet thing.  They wind up saying things that make no sense, because they ignore or twist any other context to a person's actions or words and wind up seeing "hypocrisy" everywhere because it's easier than believing the other person might have a point about something.

Quote from: ggroy;319341If RPGs are really dying, I wonder what the latest rumors are implying.

Rumor has it that at Gencon next week, WotC will be selling the 4E PHB1 for $5 with the purchase of any other WotC D&D rulebook.

Is this a prelude to a 4.5E D&D?

Or are they left with so much D&D inventory collecting dust in a WotC warehouse, that is moving at a snail's pace?  (This only a year after 4E was first released).  Is this their way of "liquidating" all this junk inventory?

As I spelled out in detail at EnWorld, it actually makes them MORE money doing it that way than selling retail.  It's an experiment that, if it works out for them (and I bet it does), you will see every year in some fashion.

In short, selling one book at full price directly and the other for $5 nets them more money than selling them through a retail outlet, where they loose 60% of retail value to the third parties and discounting.

It does not have to have anything to do with inventory, or future plans, or anything other than a desire to make money and generate some buzz.

But of course, any news from WOTC of any sort will be spun as bad news.  Because they are the big dog.  And everyone drags down the big dog.

I like dogs. I like big dogs too. I just think WotC has stupidity issues in its management department.

Quote from: Mistwell;319988But of course, any news from WOTC of any sort will be spun as bad news.  Because they are the big dog.  And everyone drags down the big dog.

Of course, that is the only reason someone would dare besmirch the greatest gaming company in the history of the world.  It can't be that some people have reasonable concerns that the latest news about fan sites closely mimics TSR's actions from the 80s.  No, that isn't possible, because WotC can do no wrong.  People are just misreading the wide-openness of the GSL and Fan Site Policy Kit as restrictive.  Likely, they are flat out lying about it to 'drag down the big dog'.