Uninformed armchair quarterbacking is the ultimate national activity of choice.  

Just ask any bartender about all the (drunken) monologues they have to put up with every time they work.  :rant:

Quote from: Mistwell;318945I am still waiting for a single person here, other than Hairfoot and RPGObjects_chuck, to actually read this new fansite license and figure out that it doesn't actually mean what a single person (other than those two guys) in this thread thinks it means.

Here is a hint - if you do not use the art and such that is included in the package, it does not apply to you.  Period.  It is not, in fact, a generalized fansite license or policy.  It's only specific to stuff in the package.  It's a deal they are offering, which you are free to take or leave: here is this artwork and stuff you can use, but you have to agree to this license.  That's it.  If you're not using the package, then you are left with the GSL (or prior licenses) and intellectual property law rights, just like before.

OK, with that in mind, please do continue your end of the world sky is falling uninformed rants and speculations.

Everything you say is true, but it seems that the most common gut reaction folks are having, that Wizards doesn't want folks posting free adventures on their website, is true, just not for the reason they think it is.

Because *my* first take on reading the fan site license was "ok, no biggee, it doesn't cover game materials, they're leaving that to the GSL, I can post powers and characters and adventures to my heart's content".

Except then you go to the GSL and it very clearly says "no websites".

And btw, these sorts of issues are why the GSL has more or less been fucked since day one.

They tried to paint 4e products into such a tiny corner, so they could say it was "open" while disallowing things they saw as potential competition, that you have ridiculous tortured logic throughout the license.

For example, I can make a book but not a magazine?

I can make a PDF but not a website?

And what if I want to put my fiction anthology (not allowed) or my magazine (not allowed) in a PDF?

Well they helpfully tell you that means the whole product is not allowed. So no e-zines for 4e either.

WTF?

Everytime I read that license it's like hitting hit right in the face with a nerf bat that has "DO NOT USE" in huge red letters on the front of it.

Quote from: Mistwell;318945OK, with that in mind, please do continue your end of the world sky is falling uninformed rants and speculations.

Armageddon is awaiting us!  The world is set on fire !!!

Revelations of doom.  :devil:

The return of ....

:rotfl:

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;318965Everything you say is true, but it seems that the most common gut reaction folks are having, that Wizards doesn't want folks posting free adventures on their website, is true, just not for the reason they think it is.

Because *my* first take on reading the fan site license was "ok, no biggee, it doesn't cover game materials, they're leaving that to the GSL, I can post powers and characters and adventures to my heart's content".

Except then you go to the GSL and it very clearly says "no websites".

Yeah, no website.  But, not no downloadable content.  They are referring to you making a pretty website using all their intellectual property to make it look like D&D.  You can still write an adventure or other content, have it available for download, and as long as it complies with the GSL you are good to go.

I read it... it is a means for WOTC to trick you into a license that forfeits your copyright.

Quote from: aramis;318983I read it... it is a means for WOTC to trick you into a license that forfeits your copyright.

Just like EBITDA in accounting.  It really means:

Earnings Before I Trick Dumb Auditor

Quote from: ggroy;318986Just like EBITDA in accounting.  It really means:

Earnings Before I Trick Dumb Auditor

Hmmm...I'd say tricking the auditor is easier if you do it before you get to EBITDA. The ITDA portions are fairly easy to audit.

Quote from: aramis;318983I read it... it is a means for WOTC to trick you into a license that forfeits your copyright.

The assumption that YOUR fansite content is so valuable that they created this elaborate ruse of a full set of fansite content just to steal yours is laughable.

If they REALLY REALLY wanted your stuff, they would just take it.  You're a fansite.  Lets be honest, you don't have the funds to sue Hasbro, and you would probably be flattered if they did like your stuff so much that they bothered to publish it.

You sound like all those idiots during the setting contest who said they would not enter the contest because their setting was "far more valuable" than getting the job with WOTC if they won.  And look at how many of those "far more valuable" settings actually were ever published, much less made more than Keith Baker did with Eberron.

Quote from: Mistwell;319003The assumption that YOUR fansite content is so valuable that they created this elaborate ruse of a full set of fansite content just to steal yours is laughable.

If they REALLY REALLY wanted your stuff, they would just take it.  You're a fansite.  Lets be honest, you don't have the funds to sue Hasbro, and you would probably be flattered if they did like your stuff so much that they bothered to publish it.

You sound like all those idiots during the setting contest who said they would not enter the contest because their setting was "far more valuable" than getting the job with WOTC if they won.  And look at how many of those "far more valuable" settings actually were ever published, much less made more than Keith Baker did with Eberron.

Some people have an overinflated opinion of their own abilities, whether it is their own rpg setting, adventures, computer coding skills, musical abilities, acting abilities, etc ...  This is especially the case for people who are narcissistic.  Virtually nothing can be done to reason with such individuals to bring back down to "reality", short of death.

Quote from: Mistwell;319003The assumption that YOUR fansite content is so valuable that they created this elaborate ruse of a full set of fansite content just to steal yours is laughable.

If they REALLY REALLY wanted your stuff, they would just take it.  You're a fansite.  Lets be honest, you don't have the funds to sue Hasbro, and you would probably be flattered if they did like your stuff so much that they bothered to publish it.

You sound like all those idiots during the setting contest who said they would not enter the contest because their setting was "far more valuable" than getting the job with WOTC if they won.  And look at how many of those "far more valuable" settings actually were ever published, much less made more than Keith Baker did with Eberron.

Big shot wargamers laughed at Gygax and Arneson for coming up with that weird game they put together in the basement, you know. That doesn't make D&D any less of a revolution in hindsight.

The notion somehow that all fan sites everywhere suck and present no content of interest whatsoever that nobody, ever, would want to protect, strikes me as very shortsighted, honestly. You never know what might happen, especially when the stuff on your fansite is experimental.

As for protecting the IP you produce on your own, any individual has this right, no matter how much the particular materials may suck or not according to me, you or anybody else. Quality of the IP is not relevant to the law. What matters is whether the person wants to defend this IP or surrender it to another entity.

You're just coming off as Mister Cynic to me here, Mistwell. But hey, believe what you will.

Faustian bargains galore.  

I don't think this is in any sense "the end of the world", whatever the "world" is taken to be - the world itself, roleplaying, D&D, D&D4e, or whatever.

I don't think my various settings are terribly valuable.

I just think that setting yourself up as the legal foe of your biggest fans is a dumb thing to do, business-wise. TSR did it, and what happened to them? Palladium did it for a bit, and it doesn't seem to have greatly increased their market share, old Siembieda still has to ask for handouts from his customers.

It just ain't smart.

Doesn't mean you have to go all the way to open source freeware with everything. Those guys don't make money, either - not in rpgs, anyway. But between the two extremes there's a sensible middle ground where your fans can be their fannish selves, people can produce more or less good quality stuff for your system, and you can make decent money selling your own stuff.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;318839Okay, I promise not to produce anything compatible with or useful for D&D4e, and not to do any free work promoting their game line.

I'll just play other stuff instead. Wouldn't want to soil their intellectual property. Gotta have respect, man.

Amen, brother.

Though I'll be honest, much as I love Savage Worlds, I've shied away from posting fan-stuff there because I'm afraid of overstepping my bounds on their fan license.

In all fairness, Kevin Simbieda also had a thief in the shop...

And Kevin only recently came up with a vaguely reasonable web policy...

He still doesn't allow adaptation to/from his systems as of May '09 (last I checked).

Lots of bad web policies exist.