Quote from: Benoist;376620That's an interesting point. When did Dragonsfoot go online?

According to the page archived at //www.achive.org it started in May 2000.

Quote from: flyingmice;376624Thanks, SB! You are a gentleman and a scholar - who occasionally flings poo, but regrets it after!



-clash

:hatsoff:

Quote from: sigmund;376621meh, my friends are all internet challenged, i think my diabolical plan will succeed :hmm:

muahahaha!  

Ya'll forced me to change my signature...

Quote from: estar;376625According to the page archived at //www.achive.org it started in May 2000.

Now, would it be accurate to say that the "old school" label really took off with Dragonsfoot's audience?

After thinking about it most of the morning, the one point which really differentiates New School from Old School in my mind doesn't have much to do with RPGs as it does with console and computer gaming. New School games are influenced more by tropes and standards of computer gaming while Old School games are the ones that most influenced computer gaming. New School gamers come from a computer game background where they were exposed to games first while Old School gamers come from a tabletop RPG background and then migrated over to computer games to add to their gaming.

That's true of some, but not all new-school games...in fact, I think it's pretty much true only of a few D20 derivatives (including 4e).

Quote from: jeff37923;376630After thinking about it most of the morning, the one point which really differentiates New School from Old School in my mind doesn't have much to do with RPGs as it does with console and computer gaming. New School games are influenced more by tropes and standards of computer gaming while Old School games are the ones that most influenced computer gaming. New School gamers come from a computer game background where they were exposed to games first while Old School gamers come from a tabletop RPG background and then migrated over to computer games to add to their gaming.

A good point, I would go one step further and say 'old school' was influenced by earlier literature, while 'new school' is influenced by previous games, including the feedback loop of RPGs and computer versions of same.

Not that this feedback loop is necessarily a cul-de-sac or anything, but there is a distinct point where RPGs stopped drawing from 'unrelated' literature and started drawing from the body of writing and other media that developed around it from previous games/tropes.

Quote from: Benoist;376629Now, would it be accurate to say that the "old school" label really took off with Dragonsfoot's audience?

You have to go over to Knight & Knaves and ask there to be sure. Using my Google-fu it seems that Dragonsfoot was the first major concentration of older edition fans. I think mainly because they had free high production value modules available.

Quote'old school' was influenced by earlier literature, while 'new school' is influenced by previous games, including the feedback loop of RPGs and computer versions of same

That, I can partially get behind.

Although, thematically, I don't necessarily see "new school" games as necessarily commonly drawing from other games so much as drawing from geek culture. (And even then, not always: look at Grey Ranks.) Even when there isn't a direct geek culture referent, the point of commonality is still visible in the willingness to invent concepts whole-cloth, instead of referring to external traditional culture. Many new games seem to be game-ifying the ideas of jaded GMs who've already seen & done everything.

Rules-wise, "new school" games are certainly very game-referent. The technology is mature, even in the sense of seeing it as a technology. Whereas old-school games were often working from a very limited toolkit, or obviously working from a completely clean sheet.

New School is defined by the second school of gaming you encountered. For me, New School is best epitomized by Over the Edge, Feng Shui, and Everway. The primary characteristics of a New School game are freeform combat, loose character definition, and the embrace of player input for certain aspects of play at the scene level.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;376638That, I can partially get behind.

Although, thematically, I don't necessarily see "new school" games as necessarily commonly drawing from other games so much as drawing from geek culture. (And even then, not always: look at Grey Ranks.) Even when there isn't a direct geek culture referent, the point of commonality is still visible in the willingness to invent concepts whole-cloth, instead of referring to external traditional culture. Many new games seem to be game-ifying the ideas of jaded GMs who've already seen & done everything.

Rules-wise, "new school" games are certainly very game-referent. The technology is mature, even in the sense of seeing it as a technology. Whereas old-school games were often working from a very limited toolkit, or obviously working from a completely clean sheet.

This... This makes a lot of sense, at a fundamental level. New School RPGs would be, in a rules sense, self-referential. That links into post-modernist design everywhere.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;376642This... This makes a lot of sense, at a fundamental level. New School RPGs would be, in a rules sense, self-referential. That links into post-modernist design everywhere.

So is Castles and Crusades a New School game? It's a self-aware merger of 3e and early D&D.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;376638That, I can partially get behind.

Although, thematically, I don't necessarily see "new school" games as necessarily commonly drawing from other games so much as drawing from geek culture. (And even then, not always: look at Grey Ranks.) Even when there isn't a direct geek culture referent, the point of commonality is still visible in the willingness to invent concepts whole-cloth, instead of referring to external traditional culture. Many new games seem to be game-ifying the ideas of jaded GMs who've already seen & done everything.

Rules-wise, "new school" games are certainly very game-referent. The technology is mature, even in the sense of seeing it as a technology. Whereas old-school games were often working from a very limited toolkit, or obviously working from a completely clean sheet.

And excellent clarification.  I was searching for a term besides 'previous games', but it eluded me.

Quote from: Thanlis;376643So is Castles and Crusades a New School game? It's a self-aware merger of 3e and early D&D.

By my own subjective definitions of old and new school, C&C I would place in the new school category.  The one big reason is that it doesn't use descending AC.  :rolleyes: