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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Marchand on September 12, 2020, 10:08:51 AM

Title: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Marchand on September 12, 2020, 10:08:51 AM
This (https://www.polygon.com/2020/3/4/21164766/dune-tabletop-rpg-reveal-motion-picture-frank-herbert) was a while ago so it may already have received the response it deserves, but I just came across it.


"Whatever I am writing, I always hope to make the material inclusive and accessible... One of my writing challenges has always been finding a way to make history accessible and engaging to the reader; understanding history is important in real life and doubly so in Dune with the shifting political alliances, power struggles, and knowing the telltale signs of a Face Dancer that may save your life. The books themselves were very white-cis-male-focused [my emphasis]. I wanted to attempt to expand that world, bringing different marginalized groups to the front. My goal was to show the history of humanity is vast and inclusive, and to explore the struggle as one where we must all work together to succeed".


On one level, why am I surprised and why I don't I just face the wokeness and let the wokeness pass over me and through me?


I suppose it's because I do actually really love Dune, the novel and the 84 film both, and that is why I am so angry at this guy rubbishing it while cashing in on it, so he can cash in on it some more.



"White-cis-male focussed" - ok... apart from one of the main factions (Bene Gesserit) being entirely women. And female Fremen being clearly depicted fighting alongside men. The Fremen's "whiteness" is unclear to me. More generally, would it not be a bit odd to have people clearly belong to present-day Earth racial classifications in the year 10,191?


What if those classifications were no longer relevant or even in existence? What would you talk about then, Chris?


For the cherry on the turd, is it really that "challenging" to "make history accessible and engaging to the reader"? History is intrinsically fascinating, if you're at all interested in people on any level; that is, people as people in their own context, rather than treating the past as raw material to be twisted into an endless morality play to make political points or for commercial advantage.

I was recently telling someone I would almost certainly buy the RPG, because Dune, even though I don't care for the 2d20 system. Now I know I would be giving money to someone who not only seems to have an issue with people like me, but who doesn't seem to like the story of Dune itself. Instead of all that passion and conflict and crazy mysticism, we are going to get a story about how "we must all work together to succeed".

**

Apart from not liking the 2d20 system, my more fundamental issue with a Dune RPG is, what are the PCs actually supposed to do?

Either you try and engage with the themes of the Dune universe, species memory and predestination and the interaction of civilisation with the physical environment, or you don't.

I am sceptical about the ability of pretty much any group to engage with the big themes in a satisfying way. Unless you are retelling the story of the books, the GM needs to come up with a story of equivalent power and scope, presumably happening at some other point in the future history, or it risks falling flat. I struggle to see it working.

If you don't try and engage with the big themes then you could do spice smugglers on Arrakis or something. Which is fine, but you might as well be playing Traveller, except there is a mild fanboy thrill from using Dune terminology.

I have seen the old LUG RPG and wasn't that impressed with the example campaign setup, of PCs as a house retinue (on some non-Arrakis planet) engaged in a petty feud about a lost baliset. I could imagine playing it and thinking, OK what's going on on Arrakis right now?? I read somewhere the PCs' doings should be the most important thing happening in the game world, at least as far as the players are concerned. Hard to do in Dune.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Simlasa on September 12, 2020, 01:24:14 PM
Apart from not liking the 2d20 system, my more fundamental issue with a Dune RPG is, what are the PCs actually supposed to do?
The same could be said for Star Wars. Unless you can get past having to have Death Stars and Darth Vader stand-ins with every campaign (which even the movies seem to have trouble doing). You need to extrapolate from what you're shown in the movies... imagine other significant situations and places and characters.


I only ever read the first book of Dune, but I'm guessing there is enough setting material in the series to suggest other intrigues on other worlds between other factions to focus on. No, it probably won't be some huge mythic event, and I'd probably just want to keep it away from Arrakis altogether.
It's why I generally favor the 'not' versions of famous settings... not-Trek and not-Star Wars. 40k has a good chunk of not-Dune in it (along with a truckload of other 'nots').
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Pat on September 12, 2020, 02:13:04 PM
I only ever read the first book of Dune, but I'm guessing there is enough setting material in the series to suggest other intrigues on other worlds between other factions to focus on. No, it probably won't be some huge mythic event, and I'd probably just want to keep it away from Arrakis altogether.
Less than you'd think. The later books don't explore the universe as much as they remain focused on (Ar)rakis, just in vastly different eras. The galaxy of Dune is more constrained and has less opportunities for extrapolation than the galaxy of Star Wars, unless they want to jump ahead to the period after the Scattering. Which seems unlikely, because they'd lose the feel of classic Dune, and Heretics and Chapterhouse are the least popular books in the series.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Simlasa on September 12, 2020, 02:27:54 PM
Less than you'd think. The later books don't explore the universe as much as they remain focused on (Ar)rakis, just in vastly different eras.
Well, I knew that the story stays focused on Arrakis... but I figured there would be mention of other places to go explore. Like what is the Bene Gesserit getting up to on Ix? (not in the books, in a game based on the setting).
Though, the one time I did play in a Star Wars RPG, everyone at the table seemed set on replaying the setup of the original movie, Death Star and all that. They were having their fun, but it seemed like there was a LOT of other stuff they could have got up to.

Dune is one of those books that always come up in the "What setting should have an RPG made of it?" threads... as if people were hot to play games in it... so what were they picturing doing with it?
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Pat on September 12, 2020, 02:52:36 PM
Well, I knew that the story stays focused on Arrakis... but I figured there would be mention of other places to go explore. Like what is the Bene Gesserit getting up to on Ix? (not in the books, in a game based on the setting).
There's some additional politicking in Messiah and Children, but it's mostly about the next generation; the universe isn't expanded much beyond what you read in the first book. The problem is the Dune series isn't about exploring a static universe as much as it is about exploring changes over time. There's literally a 5,000 year gulf between Dune and the last two books written by Frank Herbert, which doesn't give the PCs more places to play as much as it resets the setting entirely, at least twice. And the bulk of that period would be very hard to adapt to a game -- the reign of the God-Emperor is placid, static, boring, and you can't even play the resistance, because Leto II is effectively omniscient. Even a trick like PC immunity to his prescience is out, because that would invalidate the main plot of the book.

The difference between the Republic and the Empire in Star Wars is much less stark.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Simlasa on September 12, 2020, 03:17:19 PM
What about setting it sometime before the first book? Houses and intrigues, plots and plotters, but no spicy conundrums in the desert? There's still a lot of stuff that would have to be 'made up', but it sounds more interesting... to me.
(Frankly, I didn't much like the book and that's why I never read more. I liked Lynch's movie though... and I can the desire to put the setting up on blocks and steal its tires.)
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: lordmalachdrim on September 12, 2020, 03:21:44 PM
If you want a Dune feel in a game with room to play pick up Fading Suns (I'd recommend 2nd ed)
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 12, 2020, 03:24:04 PM
How I would run a Dune RPG.


Set during the events of the first Dune novel between the fall of House Atredies and the finale of the first novel. (That's a span of many years)
The PCs are all members of a minor House in the Landsraad. Like the Atredies in the books, the PCs are the swordmasters, spies, mentats, and rogue Bene Gesserit advisors to the minor House.
I'd come up with another minor House as their chief rival, but other factions have their interests in this minor House as well.


We're all RPGers here. I'm sure everybody can brainstorm cool and interesting stuff for the PCs to do to protect this minor House and advance it's interests in the Dune universe, while preserving the tone and feel of the novel. Make deals with smugglers from Arrakis to get spice, interact with the Bene Gesserit who have taken an interest in someone's genetic legacy, maybe harbor Atredies refugees from Harkonnens hunting them down. Etc.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: LiferGamer on September 12, 2020, 05:41:11 PM
With this jerk wearing his wokeness on his sleeve and you not liking the system it sounds like you know enough that you'd be better off either grabbing something like gurps or Savage worlds, and building your own.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Pat on September 12, 2020, 09:43:37 PM
What about setting it sometime before the first book? Houses and intrigues, plots and plotters, but no spicy conundrums in the desert? There's still a lot of stuff that would have to be 'made up', but it sounds more interesting... to me.
(Frankly, I didn't much like the book and that's why I never read more. I liked Lynch's movie though... and I can the desire to put the setting up on blocks and steal its tires.)
Isn't that where most of the Brian Herbert books are set? That could make it tricky, because you either have to ignore the work of the people who currently control the IP, or you have to based your RPG on works that are widely considered inferior to the original.

But ignoring those considerations, there are really two major times that seem gameable: The time of the Landsraad through the emergence of the God-Emperor, or after the Scattering. The first is the only one that will feel like "Dune" to most people, so you're really stuck with book 1-3, or slightly earlier.

Which makes me want to steal from Pendragon. Have the Great Atreides Campaign, and run a game from the Harkonnens falling into disfavor, to Leto I, Maud'dib, the Jihad, and the rise of the God-Emperor. Passions, loyalty, and generational adventure in the shadow of galaxy-shaking events.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Marchand on September 13, 2020, 07:22:47 AM
What about setting it sometime before the first book? Houses and intrigues, plots and plotters, but no spicy conundrums in the desert? There's still a lot of stuff that would have to be 'made up', but it sounds more interesting... to me.
(Frankly, I didn't much like the book and that's why I never read more. I liked Lynch's movie though... and I can the desire to put the setting up on blocks and steal its tires.)
Isn't that where most of the Brian Herbert books are set? That could make it tricky, because you either have to ignore the work of the people who currently control the IP, or you have to based your RPG on works that are widely considered inferior to the original.

But ignoring those considerations, there are really two major times that seem gameable: The time of the Landsraad through the emergence of the God-Emperor, or after the Scattering. The first is the only one that will feel like "Dune" to most people, so you're really stuck with book 1-3, or slightly earlier.

Which makes me want to steal from Pendragon. Have the Great Atreides Campaign, and run a game from the Harkonnens falling into disfavor, to Leto I, Maud'dib, the Jihad, and the rise of the God-Emperor. Passions, loyalty, and generational adventure in the shadow of galaxy-shaking events.


I would have zero problem ignoring the Brian Herbert stuff. This is my own gaming, not for publication.


A great houses, faction game could work. Plenty of faction-level play systems out there e.g. SWN that could be reskinned.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: HappyDaze on September 13, 2020, 10:18:45 AM
I own several of the Modiphius 2d20 game lines (Conan, MC3, JCoM, and STA) and I'm of mixed feelings about them. The system is functional, but it varies a bit in level of detail (and I don't know where on that spectrum Dune will fall) and the narrative elements create a bit of GM antagonism cooked into the metacurrency that I don't really like. However, what they do for exploring the worlds has often left me cold. They do pull out a lot of material for their settings, but they tend to present it in coldly factual and uninspiring ways. Sadly, I find their books boring to read through...which I guess isn't entirely bad as they want players (and GMs) to get their heads out of the books and into the actual play, but still there feels like a missed mark here. With Dune, I'm not convinced that they will present the material in a way that is engaging for any that are not already steeped in Dune lore (I have only dabbled), and that means the game will likely only appeal to an increasingly small audience.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Spinachcat on September 14, 2020, 01:54:37 AM

Wow. Another worthless woke book of weakass SJW bullshit??


Hey, I get to save even more money!

If you want a Dune feel in a game with room to play pick up Fading Suns (I'd recommend 2nd ed)


Fading Suns is the best Dune RPG. Absolutely recommend, but buy the old stuff.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: lordmalachdrim on September 14, 2020, 03:05:16 PM

Wow. Another worthless woke book of weakass SJW bullshit??


Hey, I get to save even more money!

If you want a Dune feel in a game with room to play pick up Fading Suns (I'd recommend 2nd ed)


Fading Suns is the best Dune RPG. Absolutely recommend, but buy the old stuff.


Which is why I recommended 2nd ed. Last edition by Holistic Design and still fairly easy to get your hands on. If your a PDF person you can get them from Ulisses Spiele on Drivethrurpg.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Spinachcat on September 14, 2020, 09:43:10 PM
D20 Fading Suns was a pale copy of 1e/2e, but I enjoyed it enough back when I had players who were D20 junkies. Fading Suns is a treasure trove of great story ideas.
Stars without Number would probably do Dune quite well. We did it with Classic Traveller back in the ancient time without issue.

If I ran a Dune campaign again (obviously not using Modifartus), I would have the PCs in the retinue of House Harkonnen dealing with the aftermath of the treachery. That might be fun.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: oggsmash on September 15, 2020, 06:31:00 PM
I own several of the Modiphius 2d20 game lines (Conan, MC3, JCoM, and STA) and I'm of mixed feelings about them. The system is functional, but it varies a bit in level of detail (and I don't know where on that spectrum Dune will fall) and the narrative elements create a bit of GM antagonism cooked into the metacurrency that I don't really like. However, what they do for exploring the worlds has often left me cold. They do pull out a lot of material for their settings, but they tend to present it in coldly factual and uninspiring ways. Sadly, I find their books boring to read through...which I guess isn't entirely bad as they want players (and GMs) to get their heads out of the books and into the actual play, but still there feels like a missed mark here. With Dune, I'm not convinced that they will present the material in a way that is engaging for any that are not already steeped in Dune lore (I have only dabbled), and that means the game will likely only appeal to an increasingly small audience.


   I can say I am not a fan of the 2d20, but their book production quality is fantastic.  Do you by chance know how they afford the licenses?   I have always read the Conan is pricey, I can see the MC being a bit more affordable, but Star Trek, Fallout, and Dune?  I have to think those are going to cost a lot.  I am considering the dune book just based on quality and novelty to own it.  I agree with their presentation, great art, but the writing is not inspiring, and I would think with a system that plays a bit differently they would provide multiple flavor soaked examples in the pulp they seem to love to produce games for.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: jhkim on September 15, 2020, 06:34:32 PM
It seems to me that there's a similar issue to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings -- though it's slightly worse because the main Dune books are centered on a single planet, while Tolkien at least has a wide range of areas. I should note that I've only read the first book, so I don't have a good handle on the wider setting.

The problem is that the books are centered on a big civilization-altering plotline. Setting it away from the big plot means that the game doesn't evoke the meat of the books. It's like running a game set in the Star Wars universe, but all on a single planet dealing with local problems -- it's technically possible within the setting, but it doesn't live up to players' expectations of the game.

In Dune, it seems to me that the whole theme of precognition makes it difficult for the PCs to have a larger impact on the setting. I played in a Dune one-shot game that was set on a remote system after the original book, where the system was holding out against Emperor Atreides's Jihad - with the option that we wouldn't turn the tide of the jihad, but some negotiation was possible based on unusual stuff going on in the system. As a remote system, it wasn't the focus of the emperor's attention - so we avoided some issues there.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: oggsmash on September 15, 2020, 07:02:19 PM
With this jerk wearing his wokeness on his sleeve and you not liking the system it sounds like you know enough that you'd be better off either grabbing something like gurps or Savage worlds, and building your own.
  I often buy setting books and then use GURPS or Savage worlds on the ideas I get from the setting books.  At this point, I never know if an author is full woke, or if they HAVE to toss a bit like he did out or suffer the wrath of the twitter mob.   So far as I have seen, Modiphius has some great quality with their books, I scratch my head wondering how they pay for some of the licenses they have, maybe they are selling a whole lot better than I think. (edited to add this) I found an interview from last year with the guy who founded the company, it looks like he has a ton of money from being an agent and working with some big companies as well,  he also has a ton of contacts, savvy, and appears to have the gift of gab in the sense of basically every character Jeremy Piven ever played, so I think he is very good at getting deals that will not break him.  Interesting so see a guy who is very good at his business then getting into rpgs as a business.  Not the way it usually works out.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Trond on September 16, 2020, 04:25:24 PM
Quote
The books themselves were very white-cis-male-focused. I wanted to attempt to expand that world, bringing different marginalized groups to the front. My goal was to show the history of humanity is vast and inclusive, and to explore the struggle as one where we must all work together to succeed".


Ouch. All those social justice buzz-words make this part pretty cringey!
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on September 16, 2020, 05:24:39 PM
The books themselves were very white-cis-male-focused


Did this fucking guy even read the book?
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 16, 2020, 05:30:28 PM
The books themselves were very white-cis-male-focused


Did this fucking guy even read the book?


I'm sure he did. And was pitching a fit whenever a dreaded cis white male appeared in the books. And pitched a fit at the Fremen being a pastiche of tribal middle-eastern people. Baron Harkonnen  is probably ok...
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Brad on September 16, 2020, 05:44:27 PM
So another worthless RPG using a property that has been mishandled for decades...
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on September 16, 2020, 05:59:03 PM
And pitched a fit at the Fremen being a pastiche of tribal middle-eastern people.


To be fair, they're the crib notes version of the Caucasian Dagestani Muslims of the 19th Century.  The Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch inspired Herbert an awful lot, by which I mean he ripped off chapters of stuff wholesale.  (This isn't exactly a criticism; Dune remains my favorite book and I think that using real world cultures for inspiration is the only way sci-fi can have a grounded feel to it.)


I sincerely doubt the chucklehead who wrote the upcoming RPG knew that, however.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: tenbones on September 17, 2020, 05:55:16 PM
I so detest the idea of this iteration of the Dune RPG...


I'd rather just talk about making our own setting inspired by Dune.


Like we tried here (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dune-as-a-*fantasy-rpg*-campaign-design-ideas/msg1019078/#msg1019078)
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: grodog on September 17, 2020, 11:58:59 PM
Either you try and engage with the themes of the Dune universe, species memory and predestination and the interaction of civilisation with the physical environment, or you don't.
I am sceptical about the ability of pretty much any group to engage with the big themes in a satisfying way. Unless you are retelling the story of the books, the GM needs to come up with a story of equivalent power and scope, presumably happening at some other point in the future history, or it risks falling flat. I struggle to see it working.
I could see this template/approach working well in other universes/settings, but then you lose the mystique of playing Dune, of course, even if you leverage some of Herbert's other worlds that may be as good as Dune---or perhaps better---for gaming purposes since they're not as well-known:  In Destination: Void Herbert created Ship and its environs (a messianic cross between The Computer from the Paranoia RPG and James Ward’s Metamorphosis Alpha RPG/Brian Aldiss’ novel Starship), and built that universe out in The Jesus Incident (and its sequels, written with the poet Bill Ransom) and its deadly planet Pandora.  He also created the ConSentiency universe of secret agent Jorj X. McKie via the stories “A Matter of Traces” and “The Tactful Saboteur,” and his further adventures in the novels Whipping Star and The Dosadi Experiment.  If you’ve never branched out beyond Dune, Herbert’s other worlds and characters offer the same well-crafted literary themes spanning unique worlds and philosophies.I could see the same thing working in several of James H. Schmitz's setting as well, in particular the Demon Breed:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon_Breed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon_Breed)
How I would run a Dune RPG.
Set during the events of the first Dune novel between the fall of House Atredies and the finale of the first novel. (That's a span of many years)
The PCs are all members of a minor House in the Landsraad. Like the Atredies in the books, the PCs are the swordmasters, spies, mentats, and rogue Bene Gesserit advisors to the minor House.
I'd come up with another minor House as their chief rival, but other factions have their interests in this minor House as well.
An excellent idea! :D
Allan.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: grodog on September 18, 2020, 12:04:43 AM
Apparently I don't grok the new formatting options.  Any pointers/tips? ;)

Allan.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Altheus on September 20, 2020, 12:29:34 PM
I've got hold of the beta version of it, and I'm not that impressed.
I don't mind the 2D20 system in its basic form but they always insist on adding lots of customisation options that make it incredibly fiddly to remember how to do anything.

The new addition to it is a system of contests / intrigues / manuvers where you have to create assets for yourself, remove them for the opposition and generally make the other sides' plans fall apart. This system leaves me cold, I just can't see myself wanting to run it.
If I could get past the system I could see a situation where the PCs are one of the Atreides advance teams on to arrakis (The scenario with the beta version has this setup. I don't think much of that scenario either). Other setups might be a group af atreides survivors after the Harkonnen invasion, hiding out in Arrakeen working to undermine the H. any way they can.
A fremen campaign might work, balanced between stabbing and social activity.

All of these require players who can use their initiative in the absence of an external quest giver.
The problem with Dune is the same as with other licensed RPG's, someone else has done / will do the cool stuff and the pcs will always be in their shadow.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Spike on September 22, 2020, 02:36:15 AM
In Dune, it seems to me that the whole theme of precognition makes it difficult for the PCs to have a larger impact on the setting. I played in a Dune one-shot game that was set on a remote system after the original book, where the system was holding out against Emperor Atreides's Jihad - with the option that we wouldn't turn the tide of the jihad, but some negotiation was possible based on unusual stuff going on in the system. As a remote system, it wasn't the focus of the emperor's attention - so we avoided some issues there.


Actually, a major theme of the books is how Precognition is a giant trap, and as a thematic point were an attack on the Great Man theory of History. 


If Precognition is a major problem you have two 'serious' options along with a good, if perhaps mildly unsatisfying one.


The Good Options are


A: Play in the time of the Padisha Emperors prior to the events of Dune (as I did in my big creative thread here a couple years ago),


B: Play after the death of Leto II, when a: There are no more major Precogs, and b: the genes to be invisible to Precognition are being propagated throughout humanity (that is, in fact, Leto's Golden Path, through the trap of Precognition, after all)


The better, but perhaps less satisfying option is to play during the events of the first three books but simply don't get involved in Imperial Politics in a major way.  Paul and Leto II aren't exactly using their pre-cognition to track down Spice Smugglers or win votes in the Landsraad, you know.  Well, maybe a little of the first one, but not ALL Spice Smugglers.   


THe key I find with any licensed setting is to simply NOT GET INVOLVED with the events of the books/films/plays/videogames/dream quests of kadath and just use the elements of the setting (other than characters and major events) that actually appeal to people.  To take Star Wars as an example, the entire Old Republic phenomenon proves that it isn't so much Luke Skywalker and Death Stars that people enjoy, its far more generic shit like Jawas and Lightsabers and bounty hunters.


In Dune, thats shigawire reels, mentats, weirding ways, prana-bindu techniques and Spice.   Toss in some Facedancers, a bit of Semuta perhaps, maybe a foldship or two...


Of course, the Last Unicorn Games Dune seemed entirely playable in the milieu of Noble Houses and their retainers, so what do I know?

Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: TJS on September 22, 2020, 04:39:22 AM
And pitched a fit at the Fremen being a pastiche of tribal middle-eastern people.


To be fair, they're the crib notes version of the Caucasian Dagestani Muslims of the 19th Century.  The Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch inspired Herbert an awful lot, by which I mean he ripped off chapters of stuff wholesale.  (This isn't exactly a criticism; Dune remains my favorite book and I think that using real world cultures for inspiration is the only way sci-fi can have a grounded feel to it.)


I sincerely doubt the chucklehead who wrote the upcoming RPG knew that, however.
And are they white?


I mean they're literally causcasian of course, but they're also muslim, and muslims don't usually count as white.  It's a bit like a Lebanese guy being not white, when he's probably genetically identical to a southern Italin who is white.  Or how it's wrong to call Jesus white, but no one questions whether Julius Caesar was white.  (Although there was that website on medieval people of colour that claimed that Isabella of Castille wasn't white)


By which I mean there no telling what criteria a race obsessed American may use to decide whether a Dagestani Muslim is white.  (Other than of course it being decide on the basis of whatever they feel to be convenient.)


It's all such arbritrary bullshit anyway.

I mean I would say the Fremen seem to be depicted as pretty much a marginalised people subject to colonialist expansion so that would seem to be pretty much a textbook example of non-white in the kind of power dynamic obsessed sense of the word.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: ThatChrisGuy on September 22, 2020, 10:18:49 AM
And are they white?


I mean they're literally causcasian of course, but they're also muslim, and muslims don't usually count as white.  It's a bit like a Lebanese guy being not white, when he's probably genetically identical to a southern Italin who is white.  Or how it's wrong to call Jesus white, but no one questions whether Julius Caesar was white.  (Although there was that website on medieval people of colour that claimed that Isabella of Castille wasn't white)


By which I mean there no telling what criteria a race obsessed American may use to decide whether a Dagestani Muslim is white.  (Other than of course it being decide on the basis of whatever they feel to be convenient.)


It's all such arbritrary bullshit anyway.

I mean I would say the Fremen seem to be depicted as pretty much a marginalised people subject to colonialist expansion so that would seem to be pretty much a textbook example of non-white in the kind of power dynamic obsessed sense of the word.


All I can say is Imam Shamil was a pale-skinned redhead.  If that doesn't qualify as "white," the categorization is a touch too restrictive.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: TJS on September 22, 2020, 05:06:35 PM
I think the word is arbitrary.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: ShieldWife on September 22, 2020, 11:36:36 PM
In Dune, it seems to me that the whole theme of precognition makes it difficult for the PCs to have a larger impact on the setting. I played in a Dune one-shot game that was set on a remote system after the original book, where the system was holding out against Emperor Atreides's Jihad - with the option that we wouldn't turn the tide of the jihad, but some negotiation was possible based on unusual stuff going on in the system. As a remote system, it wasn't the focus of the emperor's attention - so we avoided some issues there.


Actually, a major theme of the books is how Precognition is a giant trap, and as a thematic point were an attack on the Great Man theory of History. 


If Precognition is a major problem you have two 'serious' options along with a good, if perhaps mildly unsatisfying one.


The Good Options are


A: Play in the time of the Padisha Emperors prior to the events of Dune (as I did in my big creative thread here a couple years ago),


B: Play after the death of Leto II, when a: There are no more major Precogs, and b: the genes to be invisible to Precognition are being propagated throughout humanity (that is, in fact, Leto's Golden Path, through the trap of Precognition, after all)


The better, but perhaps less satisfying option is to play during the events of the first three books but simply don't get involved in Imperial Politics in a major way.  Paul and Leto II aren't exactly using their pre-cognition to track down Spice Smugglers or win votes in the Landsraad, you know.  Well, maybe a little of the first one, but not ALL Spice Smugglers.   


THe key I find with any licensed setting is to simply NOT GET INVOLVED with the events of the books/films/plays/videogames/dream quests of kadath and just use the elements of the setting (other than characters and major events) that actually appeal to people.  To take Star Wars as an example, the entire Old Republic phenomenon proves that it isn't so much Luke Skywalker and Death Stars that people enjoy, its far more generic shit like Jawas and Lightsabers and bounty hunters.


In Dune, thats shigawire reels, mentats, weirding ways, prana-bindu techniques and Spice.   Toss in some Facedancers, a bit of Semuta perhaps, maybe a foldship or two...


Of course, the Last Unicorn Games Dune seemed entirely playable in the milieu of Noble Houses and their retainers, so what do I know?
The Brian Herbert prequel novels caught a lot of flack, and there were certainly elements that I wasn’t too crazy about - BUT they actually do a good job of presenting Dune as a setting where role playing adventures could happen. With Paul Atreides and later Leto II, their precognitive abilities and their dominance over the setting is likely to overshadow anything that the player characters want to do. But, looking back a generation before Paul and we see all of these competing factions from noble families like Harkonnen and Atreides, Bene Tleilax and the biology mastery, the Ixians and their super tech, Bene Gesserit, Mentats, Suk doctors, the Swordmasters of Ginaz, Fremen, and a bunch of others. These could all be player character classes, or the equivalent in the given system. Those novels, despite some of their big flaws, presented a lot of these groups and created greater parity between them, as opposed to Paul or Leto II becoming too dominant. It almost gives a sort of Vampire: the Masquerade vibe, with all of these different organizations, with different powers and resources, scheming against each other.


So, personally, I would set a Dune game in the universe before Paul, maybe without Paul or any Kwisatz Haderach ever showing up. That would give the player characters greater agency and allow the outcome of events to remain more fluid.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Ratman_tf on September 23, 2020, 12:07:57 AM
Yeah, Precognition in the Dune universe is a sword with a lot of edges.
Trying to determine something with prescience can hide it.
Trying to change the future can cause it to happen.
Only Leto II had any kind of mastery over the future, and that's because he was willing to sacrifice himself to ensure the Golden Path.
Paul? It just taunted him with visions of the future he dared not change (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdsTABz2PaM) because he couldn't stomach the alternatives.


Just make it a cool RPG ability that prescience gives you a re-roll or something minor like that, and leave the prognostications to the doomed main characters.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: ShieldWife on September 23, 2020, 12:27:44 AM
If I were going to do a precognition power for player characters, it would have to be limited precognition obviously. I think that I would use something like Plot Points from Cortex. Since the GM can’t actually know with certainty what is going to happen, without railroading, then maybe the player can spend a precognition point in order to get some kind of advantage in a current situation: “I saw myself getting poisoned, so I brought an antidote with me.” Or, in cases where the GM knows something will happen, then that information could be revealed.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Pat on September 23, 2020, 06:11:58 PM
It's just a random association, but precognition in Dune is a lot like the Teela gene in Known Space. A great concept to tell a single story, but once you tell that one story, it's pretty much over unless you find a way to break it. Both authors broke it in different ways. The problem with the Dune solution is the post-Scattering novels aren't as good as the rest of the series, and have a very different feel.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: grodog on September 23, 2020, 09:44:26 PM
The Brian Herbert prequel novels caught a lot of flack, and there were certainly elements that I wasn’t too crazy about - BUT they actually do a good job of presenting Dune as a setting where role playing adventures could happen. With Paul Atreides and later Leto II, their precognitive abilities and their dominance over the setting is likely to overshadow anything that the player characters want to do. But, looking back a generation before Paul and we see all of these competing factions from noble families like Harkonnen and Atreides, Bene Tleilax and the biology mastery, the Ixians and their super tech, Bene Gesserit, Mentats, Suk doctors, the Swordmasters of Ginaz, Fremen, and a bunch of others. These could all be player character classes, or the equivalent in the given system. Those novels, despite some of their big flaws, presented a lot of these groups and created greater parity between them, as opposed to Paul or Leto II becoming too dominant. It almost gives a sort of Vampire: the Masquerade vibe, with all of these different organizations, with different powers and resources, scheming against each other.
This almost makes me want to visit HPB to pick up all of the Brian Herbert Dune novels.  Almost.

So, personally, I would set a Dune game in the universe before Paul, maybe without Paul or any Kwisatz Haderach ever showing up. That would give the player characters greater agency and allow the outcome of events to remain more fluid.
That sounds like a lot of fun---basically still trying to orchestrate the KH among the many factions of the day!
Allan.
Title: Re: New Dune RPG (including Spivey interview)
Post by: Spike on September 23, 2020, 11:04:58 PM
My problem with the Brian Herbert novels was Kevin J. Anderson, who I have always regarded as the hackiest of hacks, though I suppose he has some serious competition now from Scalzi... at least Anderson actually does have story ideas, he just sucks at delivering them.


Curiously, many many moons ago I read a book from Brian Herbert that was, to my adolescent self, quite enjoyable, so I'm certain he could have handled the writing chores himself.  Perhaps hiring a hack to do the typing was an easier way to milk notes than doing it himself?


Aside from the Hack Author problem, I do feel a LOT of what is wrong about the prequels is that sometimes a good writer comes up with a consistent back-story to support his setting, but recognizes that its half baked and, well, bad. Good enough for back-story, but awful for... you know... story.  The Prequels of Dune pretty much fit that to a T, if we assume that Brian and Kevin didn't actually make up most of the details.  Too many coincidences, too few highly important characters doing all the heavy lifting for humanity with a population in trillions, and over too long a span of time. How miraculous that Spice is discovered at the same time as the Butlerian Jihad is winding down, and that so and so was the daughter of the leader of the Witches who would found the Bene Gesserit AND was herself the secret mastermind behind the Holtzman Generator... which, ALSO, was developed at the same time the Butlerian Jihad was winding down... which ALSO happened to be the same time the Bene Tlielax were being founded, by someone who helped discover spice AND had a relationship with the Witches of...


Are we sure the universe of Dune isn't a sleepy little seaside village in northern Maine, with a population of roughly twenty people?