Well, man, you kind of evoked a demon, here. ;]

Quote from: Jason D;879955I'm a huge fan of Karl Edward Wagner's Kane, but I can't honestly imagine what there would be to do in his world. A recent thread on Facebook had someone enthusing about an RPG, and I'm baffled. KEW's worldbuilding wasn't that deep, and there's not even a single default timeframe for Kane's career.

The closest thing to player characters in those stories are the crusading paladin and his crew, and the ill-fated blonde barbarian who had the misfortune to fall in love with Kane's "girlfriend".

I'm surprised to hear that. When I think "Kane", I recall quite interesting, albeit dark, cruel and violent fantasy world, full of ancient mysteries and alien elements not unlike those found in Lovecraftian stories. There are also recurring "the higher you are, the louder you fall" and "all will perish" themes, that add another layer of experience here.

Remember Bloodstone? I've read it 20+ years ago, but if memory serves, we first meet Kane as an "advisor", who manages to convince some king to lend him a group of soldier and leads them to swamps in hope to come back with riches (or whatever his excuse was). At expense of his companions' lives he discovers ancient ruins and a source of enormous power (the Bloodstone itself) he later puts to use and (once again, if memory serves) becomes a ruler himself, only to renounce the power when he realizes he isn't its master, but merely a servant.

Or, Darkness Weaves. Kane joins a sorceress, serves her, leads her armies, becomes her equal in her plan to get a revenge and become the mistress of the world (courtesy of dark magic and an union with ancient, Lovecraftian-like creatures called Scylredi). Of course shit hits the fan and near the end of the story Kane once again is left poor and homeless with a burning empire behind his back.

Then there are minor stories, like the one where Kane arrives at some dying city/village, chased by some "good guys", wandering monster slayers who perceive him as an abomination and want to get rid of him. The world and its current state are unknown, all what matters is the Kane and his survival.

This leads to two discoveries:

ONE: The timeframe isn't as important for Wagner's stories as the protagonist.

Therefore, there's no need for a high level of details. The world changes - each time Kane becomes bored enough to pay some attention to the world and its inhabitants, he meets new civilizations, new societies. From the perspective of the protagonist(s), the world is irrelevant, and all will fade away sooner or later.

This forces the change in approach to the way a setting is constructed.

TWO: Wagner's protagonist is highly adaptable, perhaps no less than Conan himself, but his adaptability is just a survival mechanism guarding the immutable core. No matter what's his position and current goals, Kane is always the same: cursed with immortality, moving through shadows, entering the play whenever he feels like so, in hope to gain some answers, find the solution to the problem of eternal life or, at least banish the boredom.

Therefore, from the perspective of RPG, the classes, abilities, skills and such are only secondary to the effects of Kane's curse. No matter who they are, no matter how they are constructed, PCs are of same breed, and this changes whole approach to the ruleset.

There aren't that many games featuring similar PCs. Sure, there's WoD with their vampires, there are ways to gain the immortality and such, but there aren't that many games that deal with this kind of characters by default.

Combine both those "discoveries" and you're left not with "underdeveloped, borderline sloppy design with same characters all the time", but with a challenge.

• How to prepare some clever timeframe generator (for the purpose of perceiving how the world changed while the PCs were "minding their own business"?
• What's the proper way to deal with "so I spent last 1000 years practicing martial arts" problem?
  
• While there's no need for a well developed world, there's a need need for some continuity, so there's a room for a few dozen thousands of years of history.
• Even the way scenarios are made shouldn't be left untouched - there's hardly any place for FedEx/I need you to deal with a local menace (more precisely, low level monster) style of missions - they should make place for more "curse"-centered ones. There's an artifact that allows to reshape the reality itself. There's a place where people teach the important skill. There's been a talk about a wizard who can unmake the curse, or change some part of it, so that you don't die just like that, but it's almost impossible to find him...
  
• While at that, what are details of the curse? How players got it, what are its effects? Does it change with time, or introduces some "reset" every a few thousands of years? Is there a way, some terms to get rid of it, or perhaps pass onto someone else?

Etc, etc...

Bottom line: I'm convinced, that Wagner's works carry enough source of inspiration to prepare not only an interesting game, but also quite original one. At this point, I'd rather welcome something along the lines of what I've been blabbering here, rather than Conan: installment 3284764876 "we got rid of Vanaheim material, yay!". ;]

Quote from: Jason D;879956Kull made it to visit Bran Mak Morn, so it's not inconceivable that Conan could make the leap to visit Kane.

There are several common threads, once you look at the Mythos, but there are also a number of conflicting issues that make the chronology a bit wacky.

That's all right, though... "The Hyborian Age" essay describes the nitty-gritty on all of the major historical events, but overlooks the incredibly powerful and significant Acheronian empire entirely, because REH hadn't made them up yet.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of an adventure or a campaign based on the concept. I simply see no way to prepare a coherent setting covering Conan and Solomon Kane crossover. I mean, I see it, but it would be so full of bullshit and non-canon elements, that it'd reduce it to a peculiarity rather than a setting people would like to play. ;]

That's of course my assumption only!

I think what you're describing (if I grasp it) has merit, doesn't to my mind mesh very well with the whole "adventurer group" framework that most popular fantasy roleplaying games emphasize and support.

The first game I seriously worked on was Amber Diceless Roleplaying, a fantasy setting explicitly about immortals who move through highly variable worlds ("Shadows") and have rivalries that can play out over the course of centuries, if not millennia.  

It's a very particular game, with a very particular playstyle that might mesh well with what you're suggesting, but the lack of teleporting/Trumps/interdimensional travel presents a huge design challenge in giving immortal PCs free agency and keeping them together for "adventures". How would you solve those problems?

You also stated: "The world and its current state are unknown, all what matters is the Kane and his survival."

Which is the point I was making. The world and its state are unknown, and are utterly of secondary importance.

What would be the point of a Kane-based game at all then?

With Conan, we're clearly interested in exploring the Hyborian Age, and featuring heroes like Conan, Valeria, Strom, Taurus, Belit, etc., in one of fantasy literature's most enduring fantasy settings. Howard thought enough of his world to provide a map and delve deeply into its mythic history. Wagner wrote far more words about Kane than Howard did about Conan, but the relative lack of any gazeteer information (and the scarcity of maps) indicates his true emphasis.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to hear why a Kane game would be a cool idea. I'm just drawing a blank as to how it'd work and what it would contain. It feels more like the framework for a campaign to be laid over an existing game setting than an actual game in and of itself.

Hey Jason: limited budget here. Can I make do with just the core book to run a campaign in this setting? Are the supplementary books just further fleshing out of these Nations or are they pretty much needed if the PCs decide to visit Stygia  (or whatever)? In other words, can one of my players pick a thief archetype without the book on thief campaigns?

Quote from: AsenRG;879960Shame on you:)! We're discussing REH, after all.

But I like Kane! And I find him often more Conan-ian than Conan himself, especially in comparison to non-Howardian Conan. ;]

Quote from: AsenRG;879960Nope, exactly the opposite feeling is what I get. "A few iconic characters from other (than REH) sources" would make it not-really-Conan's-world.
It doesn't help that in my book, not a single author that tried to write Conan managed to write the exact same character that REH was writing about.

A FANBOY! Bring the torches! :O
Just kidding. We're civilized folk and 'round these parts, we use guillotines. ;]

In the end, it's crucial for everyone to understand that we're all entitled to create our own "canons" and accept whatever we want, so if you care about pure-REH only, there's no need to discuss it.

Quote from: AsenRG;879960I wonder what should be the mechanic for "you meet someone very much like Conan and he splits your skull", though.

I think that simple "roll PER" followed by "reason check" should tell the majority of players to not meddle with that loincloth wearing steroid abuser who prefers atlantean sword over a spiked mace. ;]

Quote from: Jason D;879970What would be the point of a Kane-based game at all then?

Allow me to reduce your comment to this single line.

I thought I already addressed that, by giving the examples of Kane's exploits and putting the emphasis on a curse. At first glance this isn't much, but let's not lie ourselves: plenty of good, critically acclaimed games might be reduced to a single statement. For example (and that's why I spoke about it earlier), WoD-Vampire is a game following exactly same idea: immortal cursed characters trying to continue their existence in spite of their affliction.

Point is: you can build whole world and long chain of events, spanning across millennia based on such a "tiny" thing alone, and yes, party of characters fit the theme very well - be it a group sharing same curse, trying to get rid of it, people who seek cursed ones and slaying/exploiting them, or simply accomplices/minions of such beings. Add "you're coming from a special breed, families that raise my servants for countless generations", because why not?

But Kane's adventures doesn't have to be reduced to his curse alone, and doesn't have to rely on it all the time. He builds and destroys empires, plots and is betrayed, travels and discovers things that surprises even him, becomes many things on the way, forms alliances and leaves piles of corpses behind. There's a strong potential for adventures here, like in all cases of "the world is your oyster" more or less generic settings.

In addition: let's not forget, that while a detailed setting featuring some story arc is indeed a strong advantage, it's neither prerequisite for a good game, nor a guarantee of a success.

Finally, I'd like to observe that what we're doing here is merely a speculation about a concept, a possibility. We "chase clouds", so to speak. Neither of us takes the idea of actually writing Wagnerian game seriously, so it's not that we need to develop actually working setting and a rueleset here.

"It can be done" assumption is what I'm happy with. ;]

Hi Jason, good to hear you're going back to first principles with Hyboria and then working with the scholars to flesh things out with a more authentic premise.

BTW, whose idea was it to rename Threat and Luck to Doom and Fortune, was that you?  It was a nice move in any case.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879982But I like Kane! And I find him often more Conan-ian than Conan himself, especially in comparison to non-Howardian Conan. ;]

Glad to hear that. Now look at what you wrote again:p.
Another character is more Conan-like than the non-Howardian treatments of Conan.
And you wonder why I don't want non-Howardian treatments in my source material:D?

QuoteA FANBOY! Bring the torches! :O
Just kidding. We're civilized folk and 'round these parts, we use guillotines. ;]

Sorry, I didn't know you do that with fanboys. Good you admitted about that custom in time.
So, I'm supposed to behead you now, for being a fanboy of non-Howardian Conan:D?
It would pain me to do so, but I shall obey the custom;).

QuoteIn the end, it's crucial for everyone to understand that we're all entitled to create our own "canons" and accept whatever we want, so if you care about pure-REH only, there's no need to discuss it.

Indeed. I'm just glad the newest RPG takes that same approach.

QuoteI think that simple "roll PER" followed by "reason check" should tell the majority of players to not meddle with that loincloth wearing steroid abuser who prefers atlantean sword over a spiked mace. ;]

"Loincloth-wearing steroid abuser"? I said "like Conan". Not "like Gov. Schwartzie".
(Yes, the body type and muscle structure would be different according to Howard's descriptions - think Cassius Clay or a MMA fighter. By contrast, Schwartzie-like characters feature in at least two REH stories, and in both cases lose in unarmed combat from Conan and Almuric, respectively:)).

And either way, it seems that meeting an Angry Conan would be something the GM does to your Evil Priest when you used too much meta-mechanics and allowed him to bring you some major pain;).

QuoteAllow me to reduce your comment to this single line.

Nooooo!!!
Just kidding;). Hash it out with Jason D (I'm a backer, I don't work for him:p).
But I can't avoid to add this comment.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;879965This leads to two discoveries:

ONE: The timeframe isn't as important for Wagner's stories as the protagonist.

Therefore, there's no need for a high level of details. The world changes - each time Kane becomes bored enough to pay some attention to the world and its inhabitants, he meets new civilizations, new societies. From the perspective of the protagonist(s), the world is irrelevant, and all will fade away sooner or later.

This forces the change in approach to the way a setting is constructed.

TWO: Wagner's protagonist is highly adaptable, perhaps no less than Conan himself, but his adaptability is just a survival mechanism guarding the immutable core. No matter what's his position and current goals, Kane is always the same: cursed with immortality, moving through shadows, entering the play whenever he feels like so, in hope to gain some answers, find the solution to the problem of eternal life or, at least banish the boredom.

Therefore, from the perspective of RPG, the classes, abilities, skills and such are only secondary to the effects of Kane's curse. No matter who they are, no matter how they are constructed, PCs are of same breed, and this changes whole approach to the ruleset.

I see you're looking for a way to reskin Trollbabe;). It's been done, according to some Actual Play I read (and the character was like Tulsa Doom, now that I think of it).

Quote from: Necrozius;879972Hey Jason: limited budget here. Can I make do with just the core book to run a campaign in this setting? Are the supplementary books just further fleshing out of these Nations or are they pretty much needed if the PCs decide to visit Stygia  (or whatever)? In other words, can one of my players pick a thief archetype without the book on thief campaigns?

There is info on each country in the core book, and you can create any  archetype with the info provided therein.

The sourcebooks will expand the world descriptions and provide guidelines for running those types of campaigns, and providing extra options.

Quote from: CRKrueger;879988Hi Jason, good to hear you're going back to first principles with Hyboria and then working with the scholars to flesh things out with a more authentic premise.

BTW, whose idea was it to rename Threat and Luck to Doom and Fortune, was that you?  It was a nice move in any case.

I honestly can't remember, as many names were suggested by Benn, Nathan, Jeff, Chris, and myself, but I know I approved heartily of both suggestions.

This should be the ultimate Hyborian Age RPG, and as an REH disciple who has run many Hyborian Age campaigns using different systems - I should be all over this. However, despite the massive talent behind the project I cannot get myself to pull the trigger on the kickstarter.

The art, writing, production, and source material should be nothing short of brilliant, but after downloading the quickstart I simply cannot fathom the purpose of the momentum and doom mechanics that are woven into the fabric of this game system (I have no problem with the basic 2d20 short dice pool mechanic, it's actually kinda slick).

If someone could explain to me how the game-within-a-game of momentum pools and doom points have anything to do with invoking the style, feel, or concepts in REH's stories then I am all in.  Maybe it is just a lack of transparency and I can't see what these are supposed to represent or do.  I want to love this game, but what the heck are all of these meta-mechanics about, and how are they supposed to contribute to my "100% pure REH" experience?

No disrespect intended, I just don't get it

QuoteThat is, in fact, what we are doing.

We're metaphorically stripping away the layers of paint that have been applied to the IP and taking a fresh new look at it, and extrapolating from there.

Our assumptions and interpretations may be surprising to fans more familiar with the "furry loincloth" version of Conan, but we're hoping that what we create will ring truer to the spirit of REH.

This seems the best possible approach to the setting.  I admire the effort.

From what I understand, REH really wanted to write historical adventure fiction, and though he was quite the history buff, he felt constrained and created the Hyborian Age as a sort of quasi-historical proxy and filled it full of historical analogues both real and imagined (he wasn't alone in this, reinventing history was a pastime for 1930's social Darwinists).  If I was serious about filling in the blanks of REHs world, I'd go back to the history and metaphysics books that he was reading (of course I am sure Jason and Jeff are way ahead of me on this).

However, filling the holes in the Hyborian Age will probably be a lot easier than stripping away popular assumptions built around comics, Arnie, 80's barbarian flicks and the great legacy of Frazetta.

Quote from: Madprofessor;880031(...) No disrespect intended, I just don't get it

I think you do get it.

QuoteI think you do get it.

Well, if you are saying what you are actually not saying, and what you are not saying is true - then that is... umm frankly crapptastic, and I am  truly bummed at saving several hundred dollars.

The next question I guess is why invest all of this money and talent into a system that doesn't fit?

I mean Mongoose Conan didn't really fit (kind of a square peg), but then they were riding the wave of d20 enthusiasm.  If your right, then someone at Modiphius must have that much hindsight. Surely they know that system implies setting and with all the talk of being true to the setting... gads.

Of course, maybe you and I are wrong... anybody?

Well after reading the quickstart rules I've decided that this game isn't for me: the Damage Dice mechanic (or whatever it's called) on its own feels overly complicated and convoluted for my tastes.

But it looks like it's gonna be a great and successful product. Kudos and best of luck!

Quote from: Madprofessor;880058Of course, maybe you and I are wrong... anybody?

What are you hoping to get here? Maybe you should post more precise questions so that people who know 2d20 can reply? Or are you just looking for someone to tell you "yeah, it is awesome...it rocks on toast!!!" ?
Because there surely are people who think that the system does what it needs to do...maybe those people are a bit rarer on this forum here, but you can find enough places on the internet where people gush over the game.

In short - you will always find people on both sides of the fence.

For myself, i am very skeptical if 2d20 can really transport the Conan feeling. I am sure the setting will be researched well and the art will also be appropriate (if a bit all over the place, style-wise if the QS is any indication) but for me, the mechanics do not say "Conan!!! By Crom!!!" ... but again, that's just another vote on one of the sides of this particular fence... .

Quote from: Anglachel;880063if 2d20 can really transport the Conan feeling.  

I don't doubt that it will feel like Conan. But that's not hard to achieve. Even D20 Mongoose Conan felt like Conan.

My problem with the system is just "why"? Why intentionaly go with something so weird when something more traditional (i.e. more like D&D)would easily suffice.

I mean, the damage system is kind of out there. Roll a pool of d6s and count the 1s, 2s, 5s, and 6s... Wut?