I'm currently designing a rules light fantasy rpg.  It will be class based.  Although I'm still working out names, I'm essentially going with fighters, rogues, and mages.  Probably going to nix the cleric in the D&D sense - at least in terms of divine warrior/spellcaster.

Magic will be handled by mages and certain "monsters" may have access as well.  So healing, divination, and other spells that often get thrown to clerics will just be handled by mages.  Not so interested in game balance in terms of spell breath.

Your ideas on this and other recent threads I've started have helped me consider concepts and rules that had not occurred to me.  What's your experience or thoughts on this and/or the no cleric option?  Thanks.

The fantasy games I enjoy most happen to have no cleric class, so it is certainly possible. There are only a limited set of worlds where they make sense, with active gods who grant their powers in the form of magical spells. There is no obvious reason why it should be healing magic either, but many would not recognize it as a cleric if you don't throw that in. If your idea of a cleric must also include heavy armor, blunt weapons, and the ability to turn undead, then you are looking at an extremely narrow slice of fantasy indeed.

Of course many D&D players have never ventured outside that extremely narrow slice and don't want to. I have noticed that some games that went without clerics in their core release, later add them back in with supplements or newer editions. The way to maximize sales seems to be giving players as many familiar options as possible, whether those options make sense or not. Your call, but they certainly aren't necessary.

Quote from: Vic99 on July 18, 2021, 05:43:13 PMYour ideas on this and other recent threads I've started have helped me consider concepts and rules that had not occurred to me.  What's your experience or thoughts on this and/or the no cleric option?  Thanks.

I've removed Clerics from my OD&D game for the same reason. One thing that I stole from Runequest is that any characters that are particularly faithful to a specific god could be granted a reward of a single-use spell that is specific to that god. It's just like a regular magic-user spell but can only be cast once. From my experience, this has done more to encourage all characters to pay attention to the various pantheons of gods rather than just have one character out of every four do so.

I split the healing duties. Magic-Users handle the removal of magical afflictions and curse, Herbalism (via potion making) handles the regular healing and natural diseases. Any sort of miraculous healing will occur either through ancient and powerful magical items or is done directly by the gods in exchange for some sort of service.

In my opinion; the Cleric is the best all around character in old school D&D.  Cleric is the original prestige class, in the very first player's handbook; in my opinion.

Probably 80% like a Fighter; plus Healing Magic, and some Offensive Magic.  At higher levels, they can really shine.  Also, Turn and Rebuke Undead.

However, I'd have no problem playing without one in the game.

TFT has very limited player based healing but makes healing potions available.  So you just buy those.

Rolemaster's herbalism is more important that healing spells at low levels.

In The Arcane Confabulation healing is accomplished with a flesh shaping spell but requires some medical knowledge to do it well.

In Dark Passages (my D&D neo-clone) there are cleric/mage Hierophants and priests that are like pure divine spell casters without the fighting.

The cleric is a weird historical oddity. It has some mechanical value in terms of healing and dealing with undead, but if you have ways around that, getting rid of it is not really an issue.

But have you considered multiple mage classes instead of one generic mage? The everything at once magic-using class is also pretty weird. It's easy enough to create new and more focused magic-using classes by chopping up the spell lists and leaving almost everything else the same.

Quote from: Vic99 on July 18, 2021, 05:43:13 PM
I'm currently designing a rules light fantasy rpg.  It will be class based.  Although I'm still working out names, I'm essentially going with fighters, rogues, and mages.  Probably going to nix the cleric in the D&D sense - at least in terms of divine warrior/spellcaster.

Magic will be handled by mages and certain "monsters" may have access as well.  So healing, divination, and other spells that often get thrown to clerics will just be handled by mages.  Not so interested in game balance in terms of spell breath.

Your ideas on this and other recent threads I've started have helped me consider concepts and rules that had not occurred to me.  What's your experience or thoughts on this and/or the no cleric option?  Thanks.

For my 80's fantasy movie inspired settting, I rolled the healing role into the Druid class.
I'm not fond of giving mages healing spells. They already get so much utility and offense, it makes the class more appealing as a "do it all" class.

I like magic separate from religion, even in settings where gods are a present force.

It seems narratively fine to drop the Cleric. In most fantasy fiction, you actually don't have a figure like this, hanging around dispensing miraculous no-consequence healing regularly. It's not in Tolkien, Howard, Jordan, or any of the other major writers I can think of. It's more or less pure D&Dism.

It is an issue mechanically. You need a mechanic for healing that's generally available. You can mechanically delegate this type of responsibility to a Rogue-ish figure with alchemical concoctions, scavenged herbs, or to a Wizard harnessing unnatural energies too.

Quote from: Zelen on July 18, 2021, 07:38:40 PM
It is an issue mechanically. You need a mechanic for healing that's generally available. You can mechanically delegate this type of responsibility to a Rogue-ish figure with alchemical concoctions, scavenged herbs, or to a Wizard harnessing unnatural energies too.

Or you can make healing a lot faster. Wounds always have a physical component (otherwise poison wouldn't work), but unless the wound kills you, there's no impairment, so all those wounds are just scratches or something relatively minor. Almost all of what hps measure in heroes is something abstract and ineffable. So there's really no conceptual problem with having hit points replenish at a very fast rate. You could even say it's a measure of relative advantage in any particular fight, and it's reset the moment the fight's over. You got killed because you were maneuvered into position for a killing blow, but if the fight ends, you can dust yourself off and hope to do better next fight.

My pressure points on the cleric are in a different spot.  I don't mind having healing magic in the game.  Rather like it, in fact.  I'd rather not have it tied so much to a heavily armored, weapon limited, undead turning thing, though.  Also find the paladin and the cleric somewhat redundant. 

In my own game, I've got "holy magic" that can be cast from a powerful, robe-wearing, limited martially, "wizard" variant.  Or it can be done less powerfully by a character more martially oriented, "paladin" stand-in (not exactly, but close enough).  Or it can be done by an in-between character with a lot of mundane skills.  Optionally, the character can use nature magic instead of holy magic with those same divisions and healing magic that is a little more subtle and slow.

Quote from: Pat on July 18, 2021, 08:06:04 PM
Or you can make healing a lot faster.

Sure, I think that's covered by a general mechanic. Without knowing exactly what sort of system might be used for handling damage, it's hard to say much.

Quote from: Zelen on July 18, 2021, 07:38:40 PMIt is an issue mechanically. You need a mechanic for healing that's generally available. You can mechanically delegate this type of responsibility to a Rogue-ish figure with alchemical concoctions, scavenged herbs, or to a Wizard harnessing unnatural energies too.

This is only true if you are using hit points as the sole means of a character's defense (which, I will admit, is 95% of all RPGs). If characters aren't constantly taking damage then you won't require constant healing which removes the requirement for a "healer" type.

I've never been particularly fond of clerics; they're just such a D&D-ism in that they literally only appear in stories based on D&D. Outside of D&D one of the more common group splits is basically the strong, clever, and magical heroes (or fighter, thief, mage in more D&D terms.

One of the reasons I loved 4E so much was that it decoupled healing from the divine classes and even from magic entirely (most healing was effects that essentially triggered and boosted your second wind; i.e. allowed you to spend one of your healing surges in an easier way than the actual second wind action).

Naturally, in my own system I maintain this but I also broke up spellcasting into specific paths rather than every spellcaster getting everything. Each spellcaster has to pick a path; abjurer (defensive magic), benedictor (buffing magic), empowered (self-buffing magic), interdictor (debuffing/control magic), maledictor (direct damage) or summoner (what it says on the tin).

Quote from: Vidgrip on July 18, 2021, 06:08:37 PM
There are only a limited set of worlds where they make sense, with active gods who grant their powers in the form of magical spells.

Very true, but re-skinned as a "Shaman" the same spell-casting abilities fit quite nicely in almost any fantasy world.