Quote from: Omnifray;418813Poetic, but I'm not quite getting why "narrative" is treated as such a loaded term. Maybe it's loaded with technical junk meaning from Internet discussions of RPGs, but I don't really care about that stuff. In ordinary plain English it can perfectly well mean simply "describing a series of events". As for the notion of "narrative authority", I don't see that the very use of that term implies limits on the GM's control of the game.

I agree completely. I didn't pick those words to be tricky and carry out my secret mission from Ron Edwards, I picked them because - TO ME - they are clear and straightforward.

But you can't talk about the concept if the language is the source of mistrust and controversy, so I'm all for picking something new.

Quote from: CRKrueger;418663If the GM is exercising authority over your character in a way consistent with what's happening in the setting - he's doing his job.

If the GM is exercising authority over your character in a way inconsistent with what's happening in the setting - he's being a jerk.

The GM is also being a jerk if he sets things up so you are likely to lose substantial control over your character for a long period of time.

For instance, if he includes a magic ring which controls you all the time so that at all times your decisions over what to do are at best cosmetic.

Now if the ring only occasionally controls you that's fine, but if it's all the time, he's nullifying you as a player.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I would genuinely like to talk about these things with other gamers who think very differently than I do about this stuff. That interests me! And I don't mind rough disagreement, or even a total failure to see eye-to eye. That is okay.

I am also happy to share my personal gaming preferences is that is useful to anyone.

But ... if you are one of the people who believe that everything I am writing in this thread is a lie and a trick and I am only intent on Ruining All Fun ... I can't stop you or change your mind, but  there is also no point in engaging with one another. Literally no point. So if you want to keep posting, I can't stop you, but I also can't see the use in responding.

For my part, I'll try to check my assumptions when possible. Which is not always easy to do.

Quote from: Omnifray;418816The real issue if I understand it is that you are saying that in your games the focus is on playing the role of the characters, rather than on arriving at a particular kind of story.

The difference is between considering yourself an authorial voice versus being your character when you play an RPG. The difference is between considering the game world as a construct experienced from a third-person point of view versus experiencing the game world on a "live" basis. It is about living experiences as they occur versus building a "story." You can check out your definitions of a narrative here: they all are precluded on the notion there is an authorial voice, someone to recount events, who is outside of these events. It is the difference between telling a war story around a fire, and actually firing the bullets yourself.

The difference really is about between playing a role playing game and... something else.

Quote from: Omnifray;418809From Google Search:-

# narrative: a message that tells the particulars of an act or occurrence or course of events; presented in writing or drama or cinema or as a radio or television program; "his narrative was interesting"; "Disney's stories entertain adults as well as children"
# the act of giving an account describing incidents or a course of events; "his narration was hesitant"
# (rhetoric) the second section of an oration in which the facts are set forth
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# The act of recounting or relating in order the particulars of some action, occurrence, or affair; a narrating; That which is narrated or recounted; an orderly recital of the details and particulars of some transaction or event, or of a series of transactions or events; a story or narrative ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/narration

# narrate - provide commentary for a film, for example
# tell: narrate or give a detailed account of; "Tell what happened"; "The father told a story to his child"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Many of these definitions are not connected to literary works at all but include simply "giving an account describing incidents or a course of events" for instance. Please if you are going to use the Grand Imaginary Dictionary of the English language as your reference source, check it out with Mr. Google first.

Let's stick to plain English people, that way we don't disappear quite so quickly up our own bums

Wow, supercilious and intellectually dishonest, why am I not surprised?  All the definitions you posted (you do actually speak English and could comprehend those sentences you listed, correct?)either deal with actively creating stories or relating accounts after the fact.

So basically, every definition you list reinforces my point that "narrative" is misplaced when talking about immersive roleplaying and then you claim victory.  Forge 101.

Quote from: Koltar;418768At the RPG table the GM is the final authority.

- Ed C.

Woah, Koltar, you just used the word authority!!

So the GM is the final authority on what?

Describing what happens in the game?

OK.

So could that be... (since my dictionary tells me "narrate" can simply mean to recount a series of events)... that the GM is the final authority on recounting what happens in the game, or even... shock horror... on narrating it???

If so, how is that not narrative authority???

Let me put it this way. I hate GNS as much as anyone on this site. I have been castigated severely on the Big Purple for my attacks on GNS (going back a year or two now). I have posted at great length about immersion on another thread here. I am an immersionist through and through.

But I can also see that occasionally, like an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of typewritters, Forge theory might, despite itself or entirely by chance, come up with a phrase which actually means what it says. I really do think that "narrative authority" is such a phrase.

"Narrationist" I do not buy. "Simulationist" I do not buy. "Gamist" - the jury's out on that one. "Incoherent" I certainly do not buy.

But narrative authority? Doesn't seem worthy of controversy to me.

Quote from: BWA;418817I didn't pick those words to be tricky and carry out my secret mission from Ron Edwards, I picked them because - TO ME - they are clear and straightforward.

Seems that way to myself as well.

-Hans

Basically when it comes to authority, the Forgers are looking at it solely from the side of the player.  

When I'm talking about a game, let's say Benoist's current Praemal game, Benoist is the game setting and interacting with the game setting is the game.  You can walk away, all of his players can walk away, Benoist just gets more players.  His game exists just fine without you, as does his authority over his game.

You can take your ball and your bat and go home, but the GM has enough equipment for whoever else wants to play.

Quote from: Omnifray;418824So could that be... (since my dictionary tells me "narrate" can simply mean to recount a series of events)... that the GM is the final authority on recounting what happens in the game, or even... shock horror... on narrating it???

Why don't you look up in your dictionary recount and account.  You'll find they are referring to describing something after the fact.

You do not narrate something live unless you are creating a story live.  You do not narrate what happens concerning a real event, you narrate what happened.

Quote from: Benoist;418808See mate. I appreciate you're trying to turn the tables around here, but as far as I'm concerned, you're the one who's misusing words to try to intellectualize the issue and railroad it where you want to go. So I guess we're on an equal footing, here: you dismiss me as ignorant, and I dismiss you as intellectually dishonest. Nothing really new in terms of pro/anti-Forge debates here, really. That's not like we haven't had these types of discussions a thousand times before, right?

Woah hang on.

I don't see anything particularly intellectual about the word "narrate". TBH after reading enough people asserting that "narrate" could only mean in relation to a story etc., I had to use the dictionary to double-check that I wasn't just living in some imaginary world of my own where it had a different meaning. But the dictionaries online which I have quoted back me up on this:- it can just mean recounting a series of events. Maybe it holds a different connotation for you. But not for me.

Now, I'm not trying to railroad this issue anywhere. If anything, I'm actually on YOUR side on the general debate. I HATE GNS with a special passion. I like immersion in roleplaying games. I think the focus in roleplaying games has to start with immersion. I'm not really particularly bothered whether the roleplaying game produces a "story" of "literary merit". I would certainly be surprised if it did. And I think any gaming style which dwells on trying to create an interesting story at the expense of letting you adopt your character's point of view is not really my cup of tea, although I'm quite happy with limited powers for players to use fate points to ask for plot events as long as they are filtered through the ref and he keeps his final veto. I don't see any harm in that.

But I don't see any contradiction between absolute immersionist-purism and using the word "narrate" to mean "recount" or "describe events". It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. You're tilting at windmills here.

But the dictionary isn't the final absolute word on what "narrate" connotes. Maybe the way it's used in your neck of the woods, or in online RPG jargon which you are more familiar with than I am, backs you up on this. Fine. I'm unaware of those things. All I can go on is the dictionary.

It's not a question of you being ignorant or me being intellectually dishonest. It's just a question of us having had different exposure to the word "narrate". To me, it can easily mean simply "recount" or "describe events". And the dictionary is on my side. Now that doesn't mean I'm absolutely right, but you could at least accept my view as legitimate, given that it has the dictionary backing it up.

Every time I read someone expounding on Narrative Authority, it seems to be for a couple of consistant reasons. At some point in their gaming past, a GM has touched that person in a naughty place and been an asshole to them in a game. Or they are frustrated GM's who want to run their own games, but so not have the balls to do so, and thus try to hijack another's game. This leads the Narrative Authoritarian to desire to have an unreasonable amount of input into a RPG being run by someone else.

Now note that I said "unreasonable" above, that is because soliciting Player input to form the campaign makes for a better game overall. The idea of Narrative Authority sounds OK in theory, but in practice it leads to a lot of confusion and situations where too much input turns your game into a quagmire in which Player (and GM) immersion cannot be achieved.

What is "reasonable input" from a Player? Character background as long as it fits the campaign setting and campaign premise. I use that a lot in Traveller, letting Players create their own homeworld that I then add to the setting so it becomes a richer tapestry.

What is "unreasonable input" from a Player? Things designed to give that Player an unfair advantage over the other Players in the game, so that the one Player may dominate the game group. Stuff that does not fit the campaign setting or campaign premise. Dictating the action during the game so that it favors the game group, especially when the Players must deal with the results of a bad decision.

When I GM, I am the GM and wear my Viking Hat with pride. I create the space so that the Players may bring on the fun and have an entertaining time. If someone doesn't like how I GM, we can talk it over, but the door is always open for them to leave. Likewise, I show that same respect that I expect as GM when I am a Player in someone else's game.

Quote from: Omnifray;418829But I don't see any contradiction between absolute immersionist-purism and using the word "narrate" to mean "recount" or "describe events". It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. You're tilting at windmills here.

Feel free to ignore the fact that your dictionary also describes recount and account as describing events that have already taken place.  After all, the dictionary is only good when it supports your misdirection, right?

Quote from: Benoist;418822The difference is between considering yourself an authorial voice versus being your character when you play an RPG. The difference is between considering the game world as a construct experienced from a third-person point of view versus experiencing the game world on a "live" basis. It is about living experiences as they occur versus building a "story." You can check out your definitions of a narrative here: they all are precluded on the notion there is an authorial voice, someone to recount events, who is outside of these events. It is the difference between telling a war story around a fire, and actually firing the bullets yourself.

The difference really is about between playing a role playing game and... something else.

OK so let me understand this then. When I say "I attack the orc with my sword", am I not recounting events? Am I not describing events? Am I not doing so with an "authorial voice", even if it is contingent on acceptance by the GM?

When Lovecraft says "That was the document I read, and now I have placed it in the tin box ... " is that not an "authorial voice"? If the GM asks me "where is the document" and I say "I've put it in the tin box", is that not an "authorial voice"?

Do you really think that when you play a character who's firing a gun, you are firing the gun yourself?

Of course you're not. You're imagining firing the gun yourself. You're immersed in your character's point of view of firing the gun yourself. You're giving immediate voice to your character's point of view.

And that goes far beyond simply recounting that your character fires a gun. But at the same time, you are ALSO recounting that your character fires a gun.

And I don't see that admitting that has any kind of negative implications at all for the notion that you are playing a role, immersing yourself in your character, viewing the game-world from his perspective etc. etc.

Why can't it be both at the same time?

Quote from: Omnifray;418835OK so let me understand this then. When I say "I attack the orc with my sword", am I not recounting events? Am I not describing events? Am I not doing so with an "authorial voice", even if it is contingent on acceptance by the GM?

Nope. You are not "recounting events". You are living through them.

That's the difference between actually playing a role-playing game, and writing a story for your buddies to read.

Quote from: CRKrueger;418823Wow, supercilious and intellectually dishonest, why am I not surprised?  All the definitions you posted (you do actually speak English and could comprehend those sentences you listed, correct?)either deal with actively creating stories or relating accounts after the fact.

So basically, every definition you list reinforces my point that "narrative" is misplaced when talking about immersive roleplaying and then you claim victory.  Forge 101.

You have NO BASIS for accusing me of intellectual dishonesty. You seem to have read the definitions as if each series of definitions were part of a linked whole when in fact they are separate. For instance, here is one from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary:-

Narrate:- to tell a story, often by reading aloud from a text, or to describe events as they happen.

These are two alternatives. One is to tell a story. The other is to "describe events as they happen". The second of these is exactly what you do when you roleplay.

The same dictionary goes on to give two examples:-

Documentaries are often narrated by well-known actors.
One by one the witnesses narrated the sequence of events which led up to the disaster.

The second example is of witnesses narrating a sequence of events. They are not telling a story in the narrow sense of relating a literary work. As a figure of speech you could say they are telling the story of the events, but they are not actually telling a story in the core sense of the word. And yet the word "narrate" is deemed appropriate.

As for supercillious, which I had to look up and apparently means "behaving as if or showing that you think that you are better than other people, and that their opinions, beliefs or ideas are not important", I don't think that I'm better than you or that your opinions, beliefs or ideas are not important. There might have been a bit of light mickey-taking in the tone of my post, but I don't think you need to take that too seriously. The point I was making was simply:- check your sources.

As for Forge 101, purlease. I am no more Forgite than you are. There's no need to turn this into a witch-hunt of everyone who doesn't immediately jump on every single anti-Forge bandwagon which comes along. You should know by now I am a great hater of GNS. I have no pro Forge agenda whatsoever. And I've set plenty of anti-GNS bandwagons rolling in my time, thank you very much. Have you not seen my very lengthy defences of immersion on other threads here? The games I write and run are my own games which you might hate, but would definitely recognise as essentially trad games. I have also DM'd AD&D 1st ed within the last 5 years. The games I play (run by others) are mostly Pathfinder, MET-LARP Vampire: The Requiem (which, Pundit's views notwithstanding, I consider to be trad) and boffer LARPs. In the last 5 years I have also played D&D 3rd edition, Warhammer 2nd edition and deterministic homebrew vampire and Cthulhu LARPs which are designed to be totally immersionist. A little further in the past I was in a Middle Earth campaign using Deadlands rules. Yes, I tried Montsegur 1244 at a con once, and Dread of Night (oh and Call of Cthulhu FWIW). Does that make me some kind of zealous Forgite? I don't think so.