Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2022, 09:59:53 AMThey could create their own game about Polynesia

Surely you jest...these fucking clowns don't create anything, much less actually play any of these games. The only game they actually play is winning internet points by virtue signaling as hard as possible to other morons. As far as Maori go, do any of them care? How many Maori were complaining on Twitter or rpg.net about this? Or is it just a bunch of self-loathing white liberals?

I haven't yet read Mythic Polynesia or the Twitter discussion, so no comments on that yet. If anyone has links, that's nicer than having to search.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 10:19:55 AM
As far I've been able to discern without taking courses on the subjects, pre-colonial indigenous cultures existed on continuums between egalitarian (no gender roles, men, women and homosexuals were all equal and could take any profession) and patriarchal/misogynistic/homophobic (strict gender roles, where women and homosexuals were considered "non-men" and limited in their choice of professions). In all cases they recognized biological sex as a salient feature of the human condition, simply because women are the only sex who can give birth. In more egalitarian cultures women may have been socially equal to men and the language may lack grammatical gender (to the point where historical or mythical figures' sex is rarely specified or considered important enough to specify), but they still recognized that men and women were realities that couldn't be overcome by wishful thinking.

I'm also not an expert, but I've read about a number of cultures, and I wouldn't agree about that. There are a number of cultures that have what would be considered transgender people - like the kliba or hijra in pre-colonial India, or the Winkte in pre-colonial Lakota. The former are described in Pundit's "Arrows of Indra" game, as follows,

QuoteIn the default setting, there are biological males who take on the role of a "third gender", the "kliba" gender, who from a relatively early age did not fit into the standard expectations of men in the culture, and instead are raised (and follow the standards of dress and behavior) as women. A Gm could thus certainly decide that for his campaign, there could be a similar gender role for women who take on the roles of men; and there is at least one contextual story (the legend of Shikhandi) that involves the daughter of a king being raised as a boy and becoming a formidable warrior.

The "kliba" gender are, in any case, an accepted part of Bharata society. In addition to being dancers and concubines, it would not be uncommon for a Kliba to become a Siddhi as the "third gender" were often considered graced with magic power.

Among Polynesians, there's the Tahitian class of people called the Māhū, though I don't know much about them.

I'd also caution against saying that strong gender roles being the same as patriarchal/misogynistic. For example, I know the Haudenosaunee (aka Iroquois) had strong gender roles, but women had significant "separate but equal" power. They were matrilineal, and women had their own councils that could determine important clan functions.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 10:19:55 AM
Altho I do find it rather lazy that Design Mechanism couldn't have hired ethnic maori (and other Polynesians) to consult on the project to add that extra bit of authenticity. Maori people are still around today and use the internet to communicate. It wouldn't be hard to put out an ad or reach out to cultural experts. I'm sure some of them would love to educate others on their culture and inspire an interest in learning about their culture.

Yeah. Hiring someone who knows intimately about a living culture is straightforward and seems like a no-brainer for a serious publication, though for free or very small press games it might not be practical. Even back in 1985, TSR's original Oriental Adventures credited Japanese gamers who were consulted to critique the manuscript.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 14, 2022, 08:43:54 AM
Yeah, apparently some people caught bans at TBP for pointing out that most of the villains were lizardman tribes or something and got accused of spreading coded racism or some such nonsense (because apparently to the woke lizard people = Maori) and banned even more for questioning the ridiculousness of that ban.

I also agree, just acting like the impotent woke whiners don't even exist is probably the most effective (and infuriating to the woke) means of dealing with it. Particularly as the relevance of TBP continues to wane relative to other ttrpg related means of discourse.

Buried lede: there are still people on TBP who know stupid racism arguments are stupid and are willing to say so.

I figured they were all banned or just left decades ago (I'm not banned, but I can't remember the last time I bothered to log in).

Quote from: zincmoat on December 14, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
I think this is completely ridiculous and good on TDM for not bowing to the woke mob.

What's next should we Europeans require a sensitively read to verify that Americans and Japanese have written their medieval fantasy games with due care. What about the legion of games that have the British Empire as the bad guys, that is so offensive to my culture. The number of times I have read something about Modern Britain or Europe that some American has written and they obvious haven't even been here on holiday. And don't get me on castle, would it be so hard to have even looked a real castles plan before putting some knocked up map of a building that has no idea of what a defensive wall is, or that keep entrances are on the 1st floor (ie the one above the ground for you Americans).

Stupid woke leftist take all the fun out of life.

The first floor isn't the first floor over there??? 

For real?

Fuck, I really did not know that.

Quote from: zincmoat on December 14, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
I think this is completely ridiculous and good on TDM for not bowing to the woke mob.

What's next should we Europeans require a sensitively read to verify that Americans and Japanese have written their medieval fantasy games with due care. What about the legion of games that have the British Empire as the bad guys, that is so offensive to my culture. The number of times I have read something about Modern Britain or Europe that some American has written and they obvious haven't even been here on holiday. ...

Yes you should.

Absolutely hold them to their own standards.

At the very least it will be entertaining as hell watching their mental gymnastics as they squirm around from having their tactics thrown right back in their face...

Quote from: RebelSky on December 14, 2022, 03:32:21 PM

Quote from: zincmoat on December 14, 2022, 10:31:35 AM
I think this is completely ridiculous and good on TDM for not bowing to the woke mob.

What's next should we Europeans require a sensitively read to verify that Americans and Japanese have written their medieval fantasy games with due care. What about the legion of games that have the British Empire as the bad guys, that is so offensive to my culture. The number of times I have read something about Modern Britain or Europe that some American has written and they obvious haven't even been here on holiday. And don't get me on castle, would it be so hard to have even looked a real castles plan before putting some knocked up map of a building that has no idea of what a defensive wall is, or that keep entrances are on the 1st floor (ie the one above the ground for you Americans).

Stupid woke leftist take all the fun out of life.

The first floor isn't the first floor over there??? 

For real?

Fuck, I really did not know that.

A backwards people obsessed with the idea of an unnumbered "ground floor"...

Quote from: Brad on December 14, 2022, 12:11:49 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2022, 09:59:53 AMThey could create their own game about Polynesia

Surely you jest...these fucking clowns don't create anything

This is the single most important thing.

People who create nothing are the ones doing this. People who create things are too busy creating, even if their creation is a "response" or a "correction."

Ed Simbalist and Wilf Backhaus thought the "medieval" part of early D&D was a crock. Did they bitch about it (well, yeah, some in APAs probably), but their principle reaction was the first medieval authentic RPG (sorry Pundit): Chivalry & Sorcery.

And you know what, later when they remarked about other games, especially Ed, I gave them a listen because I knew they were willing to do the work.

The idiots on TBP? Not so much.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 14, 2022, 05:26:42 PM
Ed Simbalist and Wilf Backhaus thought the "medieval" part of early D&D was a crock. Did they bitch about it (well, yeah, some in APAs probably), but their principle reaction was the first medieval authentic RPG (sorry Pundit): Chivalry & Sorcery.

I'd say most games up until the 2000s were essentially responses to D&D, and ways to fix things the author thought were done incorrectly. The OSR sort of went the other way and tried to reimplement D&D, albeit with changes that amount to house rules. That said, I will reiterate: these clowns do NOT PLAY roleplaying games, unless you consider posting to a messageboard pseudo-anonymously a roleplaying game.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 14, 2022, 05:26:42 PM
People who create nothing are the ones doing this. People who create things are too busy creating

Exactly this!

Quote from: Brad on December 14, 2022, 12:11:49 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2022, 09:59:53 AMThey could create their own game about Polynesia

Surely you jest...these fucking clowns don't create anything, much less actually play any of these games. The only game they actually play is winning internet points by virtue signaling as hard as possible to other morons. As far as Maori go, do any of them care? How many Maori were complaining on Twitter or rpg.net about this? Or is it just a bunch of self-loathing white liberals?

It was a half jest. Don't call me Shirley.

You're absolutely right. There's a special kind of person who rages about this kind of work to make themselves feel important, and this person is rarely the subject of the work. There are countless examples of people (not of the culture) wearing kimonos, making tacos, and wearing dreads (though not necessarily at the same time) being shamed by random losers online and then being complimented by people of that culture. There are also countless examples of people from different cultures finding it annoying when white liberals take offense on their behalf. Yet they don't stop because the feeling of rage and self-importance is too intoxicating. So, the best course of action is to ignore or point and laugh.

I'm glad to see it is selling. In a sane world everyone would be happy to see a non-pseudo European setting, instead in our clown-filled world such a thing is attacked.

I would like to see more settings from people who actually grew up in those cultures tho. Speed reading some textbooks is no substitute for life experience and growing up learning traditional stories.

Did you know that the Maori are one of the few indigenous cultures that is experiencing a revival after colonization? Maori is an official language of New Zealand and even non-Maori are learning it as a symbol of nationalistic pride.

I believe the Maori are the only ones to fight the British to a stand-still. They should be proud.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 08:38:16 PM
I would like to see more settings from people who actually grew up in those cultures tho.

I'd agree... More people should be doing games that bring a unique experience to gaming.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on December 14, 2022, 10:06:10 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2022, 08:38:16 PM
I would like to see more settings from people who actually grew up in those cultures tho.

I'd agree... More people should be doing games that bring a unique experience to gaming.

As long as they don't make it anti-white person, like Coyote & Crow.