For this example I'm going to make up a theoretical d20ish game with a feat system. And then explain why I think splats absolutely disseminate what makes a feat system good.

So, wow, new Space Fantasy Brodudes D20 Player's Handbook came out! I love Space Fantasy Brodudes! I want to make the best pilot ever. I get lets see, 7 feats from 1-20 and there are 4 feats that have to do with piloting. Awesome. I'll take those. and I still have 3 more feats to use to round out my character.

3 months later:

Oh man, Space Fantasy Brodudes D20 is coming out with a splat for the Popcollar Faction. Let's grab that.

Man, now I want to use this to enhance my pilot and make him a better pilot. Huh, 2 more feats that can make my piloting better. Ok, to stay the best pilot I need to take these. Guess I can deal with being not quite as good with a pistol.

3 months later:

Crap, now I have Space Fantasy Brodudes d20 Ultimate Pilots guide coming out. I guess I can take this class that will give me bonus feats to try and fit in some more piloting feats. I mean, I do want to be the BEST pilot in the galaxy.

Anyway. My point is, I just feel like if people are going to add more feats, I want them to be options to do DIFFERENT things, not enhance things that already have feats. Every time more feats is added to a single concept, it creates a situation where the "best" at any one archetype goes up. And every time it goes up it makes people either just give up on specializing much at all, or specialize so heavily they are useless in every other area.

I've realized I don't hate Feats. I hate what the splat treadmill DOES to feats. I remember in some games I just started giving bonus feats just to let people take more. Looking back on it, I probably should have just started culling the feats lists down to reasonable levels.

So what are your thoughts on Feats and how the splat treadmill kills them.

What is the problem with just not using the splat books?

Quote from: Old One Eye;672657What is the problem with just not using the splat books?

Well the thing is, I like additions that add NEW options (like, hey, there weren't feats that made you better at X task), I don't like ones that add more feats to an existing option.

Quote from: Old One Eye;672657What is the problem with just not using the splat books?

It is a viable option (the core only 3.5 Games work this way).  But it does run into issues of not everything being done well using the core set of feats.  There have definitely been some holes identified over the years in the core feat list that could be addressed with additional options.

It is a hard problem as usually a feat adds X benefit to the game by expanding options but subtracts Y benefit by increasing complexity.  New feats that don't expand options end up just increasing complexity.

I think that's the inherent nature of any sort of powers system.

You can either make your character more powerful at one thing, or you can make them more versatile.

But if you make them more versatile, you end up not being good at anything. At least compared to other characters who specialize.

It's just masked in some games because the core book has a limited number of powers.

Some of it is due to chains, where rather than every power being equal, the ones that the end of the chain are much more poweful.

But even at a very simple level, like Weapon Specialization in AD&D, someone who can use a lot of weapons is way weaker than someone with single specialization, much less double.

I just find feats are best when there aren't too many that apply to a single specialization, and the more a single specialization gets more and more splat support, the more it has to either become every choice you make or you are going to fall behind the "best" at what you wanted to be best at.

I like feats because I do like customization. I like the building minigame of them. I even, to a certain degree like optimization (and actually, I do enjoy theorycraft on stupid overpowered builds, I just would never actually use them in play. I don't even like 3.x and Pathfinder for play, but it can be fun to mess around with the mechanics to build something stupid, but I don't even consider it the same hobby as RPGs, its the people who take this mentality into real games that can be an issue)

I think it simply requires a degree of self control to stop piling all resources into one thing if you don't enjoy the resulting character. It also helps when you're not being punished for doing that (i.e. since the moment the GM gets Ultimate Pilot's Guide, every enemy pilot has all seven feats).

Also, realize that you won't be the best pilot in the galaxy at chargen because that dude exists and is level 20.

Also also, I would probably play a game called Space Fantasy Brodudes.

My problem with feats are that, firstly, feats allow characters to do something particular and thereby exclude characters without the feat from doing the same. Feats take away options, they don't add them. Secondly, in my experience (YMMV), they polarise play styles; where, in the same game, some players use feats to build tactical combat abilities and others use feats to build RP elements, players of the latter kind tend to be the ones that die in combat encounters that challenge the former. I do not judge either play style here, I have DMed for a group that was split virtually 50/50 in this respect. Feats and the splat treadmill reward players that buy books, read books and learn the rules of the game and punish players that turn up with their character sheet each week and play.

yay the splat treadmill. 3.5 two weapon fighting manages to annoy me in pretty much exactly that way.

3.5 core two weapon fighter: Dex 17, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting. Possibly exotic weapon (orc double axe or two-bladed-sword). After that regular fighting feats like Weapon Focus or Weapon Finesse, maybe.

3.5 All Splats On: add on -
*Improved Buckler Defense
*Oversize Two Weapon Fighting (offhand weapon can be one-handed, not just light).
*Dual Strike (one attack roll to make a shot with both weapons),
*Double Hit (make an attack of opportunity with offhand weapon),
*Two-Weapon Pounce (charge and hit with two weapons),
*Two-Weapon Rend (extra damage if both weapons hit).
*plus maybe the Weapon Style feats which add extra special effects to specific combinations (like a stun if you hit someone with both a hammer and a sword in the same round).

Particularly annoying since the prestige class that's supposed to be for two-weapon fighters (Tempest) happens to need Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack to get in, all of which probably looked great in early 3.0, but when you have another 8 feats you want to get to be good, much more annoying.

Quote from: vytzka;672700that dude exists and is level 20.

I wasn't saying my guy would be level 1 and that guy. I was saying that was what my guy wanted to work towards BEING.

Also, as I said, just cutting out all splats bothers me as well because then there are NEW things in splats that I do like. Its why I said that really culling the feat list and reducing requirements is something I'm more likely to do than banning whole splats.

Its more work for me? Yeah, sure, but sometimes its worth it.

For me, a little character customization goes a long way.

Too much becomes a chore.

In 3.x, feats were brand new,  and they ended up being too conservative in the rate they were acquired, especially since they made a whole bunch of feats that didn't actually do anything interesting (I'm looking at you Greater Two Weapon Fighting).  

Good feats let you do something better than you could without them, but they don't prevent other people from trying things.  Improved Trip is a good example of that type of Feat.  

The other side of the issue with Feat Bloat is that there is a lot of crap that makes it hard for new players.  Before a player can decide that Brachiation is a lame feat, they have to read it.  That is time they could be spending on another aspect of the game.

I think the big problem with Feats and splatbooks is that splatbooks are believed to be the best way to maintain financial viability with gamers. From a business standpoint, if you want to keep your customers buying your splatbooks, you have to offer them something new or better to get them to fork over the money. Feats are easy to write.

I do not think the problem is confined to Feats, though. Prestige Classes and other Character Classes suffer from splatbook bloat in the same manner. Come to think of it, even Spells and Magic Items suffer from splatbook induced bloat.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;672792Good feats let you do something better than you could without them, but they don't prevent other people from trying things.  Improved Trip is a good example of that type of Feat.

I agree with this, too. I don't like feats that say "You can't do X without a feat."

I like feats that modify existing options, not create new options. (Like feats that give you a bonus, or let you do something quicker, or let you do something as a reaction etc.)

Quote from: Emperor Norton;672762I wasn't saying my guy would be level 1 and that guy. I was saying that was what my guy wanted to work towards BEING.

But then you should understand that you don't need need it at level one and might take the missing feats at some point towards later levels without compromising your (laudable) goal.

Moreover, I think when you have seven slots and seven possible feats for the same thing the temptation can get overwhelming (because it's a straight decision between the best guy at X you can be or otherwise). If you have 30 piloting feats and 7 slots you rather obviously can't take all of them and can actually look at whatever you want and why (and might decide you don't even want 7 feats about the same thing at all).