Quote from: Bill;777044Now I need to find a way to get a gamer I know to actually try 5e.

He is a good dm, but is infatuated with pathfinder.

In a few months I will be playing in a game he is going to run, and my interest in 5e is 1,000 times my interest in pathfinder.

The game will be fun regardless, but....The sleekness and bounded accuracy of 5e appeals to me way more than the gluttonous record keeping of pathfinder.

Tell me about it, I got a bunch of new players and they are all infatuated with Pathfinder, which I find burdensome and over encumbered with modifiers, feats and nit-picky rules and too much shit to remember.  I have been trying to get them to play the new Basic D&D and none of them will give it a go all they want to do is play PF and they want me to GM and I really don't want to.  I'd rather GM 2E AD&D then PF any week.

Quote from: flyingcircus;778970Tell me about it, I got a bunch of new players and they are all infatuated with Pathfinder, which I find burdensome and over encumbered with modifiers, feats and nit-picky rules and too much shit to remember.  I have been trying to get them to play the new Basic D&D and none of them will give it a go all they want to do is play PF and they want me to GM and I really don't want to.  I'd rather GM 2E AD&D then PF any week.

Tell them you want to DM 5E, but you'll be happy to play Pathfinder if someone else wants to DM. And be prepared to follow through.

Remember the fastest cure to 3.x/PF syndrome, "Sure, I'll play... if you GM it."

In my experience with regard to buying and reading rules there are several kinds of players.

Type 1: Players who will neither read the rules nor buy them. (Most players fall into this category.)

Type 2: Players who will read parts of the rules, often from someone else's rulebook. They may buy the rules. The part of the rules they read usually relates to their specific PC. (A smaller number of players fall into this category. Many if not most of them are running spell casters, alchemists, gadgeteers, Jedi, or whatever type of more complicated than average character a game has.)

Type 3: Players who will read the rules fluff either from their own or others rulesbooks. (I assume these sorts of players exist. I have never, ever played with one though. So they may be like unicorns or something.)

Type 4: Players will buy the rules for any game they think they will GM. (There are always a smaller number of these players than of the Type 1 players.)

Type 5: Players who will buy or read the rules for any game they play more than once or twice. Because they like to know how the rules work. (I am one of these players. So are all the wargamers I have ever played RPGs with. So are at least half of the GMs I know, though not all of them.)

Type 6: Players who will buy rules just so they can read the rules or collect the rules. They like acquiring and reading rules. For games they know they will never, ever play. Why? Fuck if I know, but it is really cool to have one as a friend and lending library when considering what other games one might want to play or run or when stealing something for house ruling. (This is the least common, after Type 3 players - who may not even exist. I had one good friend like this. He was cool.)

Quote from: Old Geezer;778707Ah, but "I am the referee.  This is my world.  I make the rules.  Part of the game is discovering the rules empirically.  By coming to the table, you explicitly agree to this."

If you actually say that then I would not be at all surprised that very few players express an interest in getting a copy of the rules. I on the other hand would start considering how I can best examine and map the inside of your head. Warning: sharp objects may be involved.

Quote from: Bren;778997In my experience with regard to buying and reading rules there are several kinds of players.

Type 1: Players who will neither read the rules nor buy them. (Most players fall into this category.)

Type 2: Players who will read parts of the rules, often from someone else's rulebook. They may buy the rules. The part of the rules they read usually relates to their specific PC. (A smaller number of players fall into this category. Many if not most of them are running spell casters, alchemists, gadgeteers, Jedi, or whatever type of more complicated than average character a game has.)

Type 3: Players who will read the rules fluff either from their own or others rulesbooks. (I assume these sorts of players exist. I have never, ever played with one though. So they may be like unicorns or something.)

Type 4: Players will buy the rules for any game they think they will GM. (There are always a smaller number of these players than of the Type 1 players.)

Type 5: Players who will buy or read the rules for any game they play more than once or twice. Because they like to know how the rules work. (I am one of these players. So are all the wargamers I have ever played RPGs with. So are at least half of the GMs I know, though not all of them.)

Type 6: Players who will buy rules just so they can read the rules or collect the rules. They like acquiring and reading rules. For games they know they will never, ever play. Why? Fuck if I know, but it is really cool to have one as a friend and lending library when considering what other games one might want to play or run or when stealing something for house ruling. (This is the least common, after Type 3 players - who may not even exist. I had one good friend like this. He was cool.)

Type 1.5: Players who will browse through someone else's book looking at the pictures and occasionally reading something that catches their eye about a cool spell or class or something (I have one of these in my group).

Personally, I'm a Type 6. Last time I went through and counted them I had 74 RPGs and over 300 board games. That was back in 2009 though. I've acquired more in the last five years, so I'm probably pushing 100 RPGs now (although we had to slim down the board game collection due to lack of space, so that's probably down to around 150 despite all the new ones we've bought).

I haven't had a chance to read it in depth yet, but my first impressions of the PHB are as follows:

Wowza, that's a lot of options. I'm already torn between four or five subclasses I'd like to give a shot.

Never thought I'd see a game where the Diviner school was so cool. Shades of Alex Verus!

I checked on several of my concerns after reading the so-called "Alpha Document" and everything I checked was fixed.

The only subclass that really struck me as "blah" was the Ranger Beastmaster, but even now I'm not sure, since having an extra bag of hit points on the scene that can trigger advantageous or disadvantageous conditions is hard to measure in terms of basic combat ability.

At first, I thought that the spell list had been dramatically reduced. Well, yes and no. Most of the go-to spells are still there. One of the reasons the list is shorter is because so many things scale.

Speaking of spells, can't wait to cast my first animate objects.  This is going to be so twisted!

The Battlemaster looks like a pretty good substitute for the 4e Warlord. The "Rally" maneuver even lets them hand out temporary hit points. I wish they would have just called it a Warlord, though. "Battlemaster" is a little too hokey for my taste.

Really, really glad that "marking" is going to be largely restricted to the optional rules.

The Paladins look like Paladins again. And I think the "Green Knight" option (oath of ancients) will be fun.

Overall, there are many more tactical options than I expected, and while that looks nice on the surface, speed of combat resolution is still of prime importance, so I'll have to wait and see how that plays out.

I've also got the feeling that bounded accuracy is going to be a two way street. Lots of weaker creatures can now pose a real threat, but it looks to me like larger PC parties are going to result in more than just a linear power progression. Toss in a few summoned creatures and/or pets and it could get pretty wild.

The art was mixed. The halflings do look like bobble-heads, but that's fine with me, since we usually exterminate them on sight anyway.

As for our group, a third of us have the books, and we haven't played our first episode yet. I fully expect that more than half will have them before we start.

Quote from: Opaopajr;778993Remember the fastest cure to 3.x/PF syndrome, "Sure, I'll play... if you GM it."

Yep. The most die hard fan of the game should be the one running it.

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;779000Type 1.5: Players who will browse through someone else's book looking at the pictures and occasionally reading something that catches their eye about a cool spell or class or something (I have one of these in my group).

I'd tweak the definition for Type 2 and dump them in that bucket.

QuotePersonally, I'm a Type 6. Last time I went through and counted them I had 74RPGs and over 300 board games.

:cool: Want to be my new best friend?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;778400I do not think I'm being unreasonable when I make the claim that when teaching someone an RPG and they enjoy it, they go look up information themselves once the session is done.

It's unreasonable to assume that's true of everyone, or even most gamers.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;778400While I know we each can only speak anecdotally . . .

Then it would help if you would start framing your posts to reflect that knowledge.

I believe you when you say that's true for you and the people with whom you've played; I don't believe you when you imply it's true for everyone, or even for most gamers, because it runs exactly counter to my own experience over many years.

In fact, I would say that opinions and experiences on this are quite mixed.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;778319Uh. I wasn't arguing that point.

No, but I was, so your post has only a tangential relationship to what I was talking about.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;779474It's unreasonable to assume that's true of everyone, or even most gamers.


Then it would help if you would start framing your posts to reflect that knowledge.

I believe you when you say that's true for you and the people with whom you've played; I don't believe you when you imply it's true for everyone, or even for most gamers, because it runs exactly counter to my own experience over many years.

In fact, I would say that opinions and experiences on this are quite mixed.

Firstly, I never implied it was everyone.  Not sure why you would even mention that, let alone twice.  Secondly, I do admit I was implying the majority of gamers, and I hold by that.  I'm not talking about people who post on a forum because we've already established people like us aren't representative of the hobby as a whole.  Linking to TBP where many of them don't even play the game isn't exactly a solid point to back up your position with

Let me ask you this.  When is the last time you went into a game store function of Encounters?  Remember, I'm not talking about gamers like you or me who have been playing for 30+ years.  I am talking about gamers in general.  And when I go to these games stores, nearly everyone has a book.  

Or look at the PHB sales figures.  If I am expected to believe your argument (most gamers don't get the rules), then the hobby is much bigger than anyone ever expected.  If 100,000 PHB were sold, applying your argument, that means there are actually 300,000-500,000 or so people playing it since there's only one book per table or so.

I find that...improbable.

I buy the books to read because A: I like the setting. B: Im going to be the GM. C: Quite a few RPGs have some really fun background info. Sometimes reading these books is like reading a mystery novel. You find yourself wanting to know what happened. Why it happened... Or just because its usefull for familliarizing with the setting.

Empire of the Petal Throne is one example. Pages and pages of really interesting background and society. The BECMI Blackmoor set was another one that had a rather nice and darn long intro in it. I enjoyed reading up on all the intrigue and development of the setting.

Rifts is another set thats fun to read for me. Lots of background and tons and tons of info hidden in the race and class data. Scraypers is a good example.

Conversely Ive had two RPGs pretty much axe murder my interest right out the gate with something in the background or such.

So I am hopeful that the PHB will be a good read one way or another.

And ARGH! at least 5 more days till my book ships...

Quote from: Sacrosanct;779516Firstly, I never implied it was everyone.  Not sure why you would even mention that, let alone twice.  Secondly, I do admit I was implying the majority of gamers, and I hold by that.  I'm not talking about people who post on a forum because we've already established people like us aren't representative of the hobby as a whole.  Linking to TBP where many of them don't even play the game isn't exactly a solid point to back up your position with

Let me ask you this.  When is the last time you went into a game store function of Encounters?  Remember, I'm not talking about gamers like you or me who have been playing for 30+ years.  I am talking about gamers in general.  And when I go to these games stores, nearly everyone has a book.  

Or look at the PHB sales figures.  If I am expected to believe your argument (most gamers don't get the rules), then the hobby is much bigger than anyone ever expected.  If 100,000 PHB were sold, applying your argument, that means there are actually 300,000-500,000 or so people playing it since there's only one book per table or so.

I find that...improbable.

I'd say a majority of my players (80%) never buy anything, especially now, with so much stuff online.  For the current group, if 5E was going to be our go-to game, access to the online character generator would be all they'd want. Even so, the next group I'm forming has 3 co-GMs, all of whom own a lot of books. The group has 6, so 50%. And that's the highest percentage of book-ownin' folks I've ever had at one table.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;779516I find that...improbable.

You're probably more right than not, but over the last 4 years I've DMed some combination of Labyrinth Lord, ACKS, and 4th Edition for ~10 people under the age of 16. One had a set of 3.5 manuals, but AFAIK none of the others had the rulebooks, and only two had access through parents.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;779516Let me ask you this.  When is the last time you went into a game store function of Encounters?  Remember, I'm not talking about gamers like you or me who have been playing for 30+ years.  I am talking about gamers in general.  And when I go to these games stores, nearly everyone has a book.  

When it comes to D&D, I don't believe people who play Encounters sessions at stores are representative of the player-base either. People who go to those events are gamers first and foremost. They're into RPGs enough to sit down with a bunch of strangers and play. The groups I've known are friends for whom D&D is something they enjoy doing together. They're friends first, gamers second. And that goes for boardgames as well. There are one or two dedicated gamers in the group, and the rest just show up to play.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;779516Or look at the PHB sales figures.  If I am expected to believe your argument (most gamers don't get the rules), then the hobby is much bigger than anyone ever expected.  If 100,000 PHB were sold, applying your argument, that means there are actually 300,000-500,000 or so people playing it since there's only one book per table or so.

I find that...improbable.

I don't. As I've said before, I have friends who been playing for over 30 years and never bought a book. Also, keep in mind that WotC themselves have remarked that the average age of players is around college-age. A lot of students don't have money for $50 game books. I would assume most games played out of college dorms involve one or maybe two PHBs being shared around the group.