Quote from: Haffrung;778428The 5E design team has said repeatedly that their ambition is to break out of the hardcore gamer market and appeal to the much broader casual gamer market. The same people who have fueled the explosion in popularity of boardgames. Mearls has come right out and said it's a problem D&D isn't appealing to those gamers.

If players need to read the rules to play D&D 5E, it will fail at this goal. Most hobbyist boardgamers do not read the rules to the games they play. Groups typically have one, or maybe two, lead members who buy the games, read the rules, and teach them. The rest of the members of the group simply show up and  play. This is true even for the most complex hobby games, like Twilight Imperium. Go to boardgamegeek and you will find all kinds of threads with tips on how to introduce and teach TI3 to a group of new players. While everyone says it would be nice if the players read the rules, they concede that it's unlikely to be the case, even for a game that takes an 8-12 hour time commitment. That's just reality. So they have to be taught at the table.

If WotC are serious about broadening the appeal of D&D, they need to provide some very succinct and compact play aids summarizing the rules. Even boardgames with only 12 pages of rules will often come with a summary card, or players will publish rules summaries them independently. Why these sorts of summaries are not standard in RPGs is baffling. I suspect RPG companies are afraid that freely available rules summaries will make the game itself an unnecessary purchase (which is one of the reasons most GM screens are terrible). However, in the case of Basic 5E, there's no reason WotC shouldn't publish a two-page rules summary in point form.

I admit that is mostly what I do but as I do get a handle on the game or especially like the game out of the gate I do pick up the relavent books that interest me and read the rules a little at a time. Basically both you and Sacro are right.

Quote from: dragoner;778418What's ok about sacto? Old town is about best,

The food, the rivers, the lack of smog and traffic, Davis, the Grid has some good places.  It's main problem, that's it's stuck between town and city and can't decide what it wants to be is also it's charm, such as it is.

Quote from: CRKrueger;778458The food, the rivers, the lack of smog and traffic, Davis, the Grid has some good places.  It's main problem, that's it's stuck between town and city and can't decide what it wants to be is also it's charm, such as it is.

They used to have some good flat-track motorcycle racing out in Lodi, seeing Harley vs Ducati was unique. After 20 years; 80, 5, and 99 all seem to lock up in the godawful rush-hour, commute for me, living in the Oakland Hills, could easily turn into a 2-3 hour trek getting home. It did seem to decide what it was, suburbia, I was pm on a few housing tracts, from Manteca all the way up past Rio Linda; up until the slow down in '07-'08.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;778400Which is also why I referenced OG's experience being unique.  I can't very well just keep all the rules to myself and prevent new players from looking at them like Gary did to OG (apparently) because the rules are out there and available to anyone who wants them.  Not the cast in 1974.

While I know we each can only speak anecdotally, I am confident in saying that new players looking up stuff on their own after the game sessions is a lot more common than just my personal experience as you keep trying to say it is.

Also, the irony in your last statement is not lost on me.  I hope it's not lost on you.

Well, maybe it's down to different player groups, then.  Part of it is, of course, the fact that OD&D has been out of print for a long time, but the vast majority of people I've played with all over the country in the last 42 years don't even ask about the possibility of getting the rules.  I just finished an almost year long game of Dungeon World as a player, and nobody but the ref had the rules.  My Minnesota group is playing two or three different FATE games, and three people out of nine have even bothered to look at the rules.

My experience is obviously not universal, but yours may not be either.

Quote from: tenbones;778399Oh absolutely. I'm totally with you on this stance for anything one is invested in, not just games. If it ain't broke, etc. etc.

But having said that - what would 5e (or any other edition) have to do in order to be subjectively better than your current favorite?

That's a good question.. and a real toughie!  The hardest part, of course, would be overcoming my intimate familiarity with the rules.  It's hard to beat a game where I know the rules so well that I can run multiple sessions in a weekend referencing only the to hit charts, saving throw tables, wandering monster charts, and my dungeon maps.

The first is "be rules light."  The second is be clear and more explicit; I freely admit OD&D is full of gaps and badly organized.

Now, Dungeon World PLAYS very much like OD&D, and I like it a lot except for the over-simplified combat, but I didn't like the rules much (mostly because the sardonic smirking attitude they had.)

If you pared DW down to about 100 pages I'd probably like it.

The original Star Wars RPG by West End was 148 pages.  We played the shit out of that game and loved it, and it's still my favorite Star Wars RPG.  And just reading the book is a joy.

So, "do like that."  For instance, a "Princess Bride" RPG in 120 pages that was well done, I would probably buy.

Vague, I know.  Sorry.

Quote from: dragoner;778420People are complaining that they had multiple tpk's from this goblin ambush; which when I saw it, it was pretty plainly an ambush; so we flanked it. No damage, but what were the rest doing? See the goblins and head on charge? Then it is a dice rolling contest, and I'm not happy with a game that has to satisfy that mindset.

In the last few years before his death, Gary Gygax complained about the huge number of TPKs that happened in the first encounter in Greyhawk... kobolds.  He said players simply marched straight into the ambush, never checked the flanks, never checked behind them, etc... and got butchered.  Then they'd roll new characters and do exactly the same thing.

Honestly, I blame computer games, because in most of them "tactics" are "which buttons you push," not "positioning, flanking, polearms in the second rank," etc.  I don't expect people to be good at something they've never been taught.

Sadly, the Pied Piper forums were lost to a crash around 2006 or I could give links.

@OG - Not vague at all. I very much understand what you're alluding to. I too am just trying to put my finger on "it". The whole question haunts me too. It's haunted me since I left 2e and drank deeply of 3.x/Pathfinder and gave myself brain-cancer trying to rationalize why it was "better"...

I stared into the Abyss. It stared back. And winked.

Quote from: tenbones;778508@OG - Not vague at all. I very much understand what you're alluding to. I too am just trying to put my finger on "it". The whole question haunts me too. It's haunted me since I left 2e and drank deeply of 3.x/Pathfinder and gave myself brain-cancer trying to rationalize why it was "better"...

I stared into the Abyss. It stared back. And winked.

I had that same experience in Star Wars d20, which my 3e/3.5E playing friends tell me is very similar to 3e.

Between all the various feats, skills, and buffs, I don't think I ever calculated either my attack or my defense correctly in 3 1/2 years.  I don't think I ever DID remember how Battlemind worked.  Not only that, I had one defense against ranged energy weapons, one defense against ranged physical weapons, one defense against physical melee weapons, one defense against energy melee weapons, one defense against lightsabers, one defense against lightsabers used by Dark Side users, and one defense against touch attack.

To which my reaction is, "Are you fucking KIDDING me?"

Quote from: Old Geezer;778497I just finished an almost year long game of Dungeon World as a player, and nobody but the ref had the rules.  My Minnesota group is playing two or three different FATE games, and three people out of nine have even bothered to look at the rules.

My experience is obviously not universal, but yours may not be either.

FWIW, that matches my experience. Of my group of four players, I expect one, maybe two will read the 5E PHB. The others expect to just show up and play.

Quote from: Old Geezer;778505He said players simply marched straight into the ambush, never checked the flanks, never checked behind them, etc... and got butchered.  Then they'd roll new characters and do exactly the same thing.

Flanks? In my group it's SOP to have one PC watch the ceiling at all times.

Quote from: Old Geezer;778505In the last few years before his death, Gary Gygax complained about the huge number of TPKs that happened in the first encounter in Greyhawk... kobolds.  He said players simply marched straight into the ambush, never checked the flanks, never checked behind them, etc... and got butchered.  Then they'd roll new characters and do exactly the same thing.

Honestly, I blame computer games, because in most of them "tactics" are "which buttons you push," not "positioning, flanking, polearms in the second rank," etc.  I don't expect people to be good at something they've never been taught.

Sadly, the Pied Piper forums were lost to a crash around 2006 or I could give links.

It just annoys me to see in the wotc forums people complaining it is broken because that happens.

I don't blame computer games, hell, I created those computer games, with panzer general 2 mods. But those you did have to use tactics. Though I can't remember when I realized not to walk into an ambush, first grade dirt clod wars maybe? Different generations though, that was also the time when all of our fathers had done military service and the Saturday afternoon war movie was a regular thing. And holy crap did I love Combat! with Vic Morrow back then.

Quote from: dragoner;778526It just annoys me to see in the wotc forums people complaining it is broken because that happens.

I don't blame computer games, hell, I created those computer games, with panzer general 2 mods. But those you did have to use tactics. Though I can't remember when I realized not to walk into an ambush, first grade dirt clod wars maybe? Different generations though, that was also the time when all of our fathers had done military service and the Saturday afternoon war movie was a regular thing. And holy crap did I love Combat! with Vic Morrow back then.

Rules can't fix stupid.

On the other hand, a few weeks ago I ran an OD&D dungeon crawl for some gamers who hadn't played the older games in years.  They went down with just the 4 PCs in no particular formation and got thoroughly chewed up by some 1 hit point giant solpugids.

They got back upstairs and said, "oh, yeah, right, this is old school, we forgot" and promptly bought plate armor, hired some mercenaries, and set up a close order formation with spears in the second rank to protect either front or rear of the nine person formation as needed.  They did quite well then, and a good time was had by all.

Yeah, got a new player 2 weeks ago of the "LEEROY JENKINS!" school of thought. He seems to take great offense at doors in dungeons, and proceeds to kick every one of them he finds in (even when I, the party rogue, am in the middle of finding out if it's trapped, or could be opened silently so we can sneak in).

After the third time he decided to kick open the door I was sitting next to, I let him kick in the door across the way, as I closed the door I was next too.

He bashed straight through the door, and into the waiting embrace of the Black Pudding in the next room (which had a readied sneak attack, having heard him bash through the door on the other side of the hallway).

The party snuck on by, as his death screams echoed down the hall. For one round.

The player was butt hurt we didn't rush in to save him (we saw it was a Black Pudding, and identified it). I pointed out if he didn't feel like waiting for the party, the party was under no compulsion to rescue him.

I somehow doubt the player is going to learn though. The GM also runs a game on another day, and he told me he plays much the same in that game too...

Quote from: Haffrung;778525FWIW, that matches my experience. Of my group of four players, I expect one, maybe two will read the 5E PHB. The others expect to just show up and play.

I have two groups of five players (although there's an overlap as two players are in both groups). I don't expect any of them to read the PHB except to occasionally look up a spell description.

I certainly don't expect any of them to go out and buy a PHB of their own - unless they're planning on DMing for a different group. The whole "players own a PHB" thing is not something I've ever seen in 35 years of gaming. People only buy a PHB if they're buying the whole set of three to run the game themselves.

The same goes for "splat" books aimed at players. I've never known a player buy one of those. A DM might if they want to include the stuff in it in their campaigns, but a player? Never.

Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;778551I have two groups of five players (although there's an overlap as two players are in both groups). I don't expect any of them to read the PHB except to occasionally look up a spell description.

I certainly don't expect any of them to go out and buy a PHB of their own - unless they're planning on DMing for a different group. The whole "players own a PHB" thing is not something I've ever seen in 35 years of gaming. People only buy a PHB if they're buying the whole set of three to run the game themselves.

The same goes for "splat" books aimed at players. I've never known a player buy one of those. A DM might if they want to include the stuff in it in their campaigns, but a player? Never.

I really think this is more the exception to the rule, especially for gamers as a whole, and not gamers who have been playing for 30 years.  I base this not only on the groups that I see personally during cons and at game stores, but by the sales numbers of the PBH.  It skyrocketed up the Amazon charts.  So either

a) D&D 5e is way more popular that anyone thought if there's only one PHB per group

or

b) most everyone at the group playing 5e has a PHB.


I think b is a lot more probable.  Because by that same logic, we know 125,000 unique people downloaded the playtest packets (according to Mearls)  If only one person per group had the rules, that means 500,000 people playtested?  I doubt that.  Even factoring in the people who downloaded the rules and never played once (ahem...TBP)

So if the people who play D&D don't buy the rulebooks then it must be people who just enjoy reading them?