Quote from: David Johansen;687908I'm completely convinced that Gary Gygax saw alignment arguments as a feature of D&D, not a bug.

Anyhow, one hard truth about rpgs is that they can really force you to face the fact that some of your friends are unrepentant jackasses.  I don't have a solution to that.  I don't think the solution can be achieved by a game mechanic.  Indeed, I wonder if that's the real fallacy behind the story game movement?  Is it that they believe they can change people with game mechanics?  Talk about confusing fantasy with reality...

Probably got confused about the difference between Role Playing Games and therapeutic role playing.

Quote from: David Johansen;687928Maid?  Dogs in the Vineyard?  Whatever

Okay, cool. So what's the people changing mechanic in Dogs in the Vineyard?

Quote from: David Johansen;687928Maid?

That's not a "story game", though. Generally speaking, the only part of the basic system which diverges from traditional GMing is that the players may, if it suits the selected style of play, call for random event rolls.

(It's, fairly obviously, not some sinister plot to "change people", either.)

Quote from: Elfdart;687732So your orcs are Oakland Raider fans?

No, people are actually scared of Orcs.

JG

Quote from: The Yann Waters;687967That's not a "story game", though. Generally speaking, the only part of the basic system which diverges from traditional GMing is that the players may, if it suits the selected style of play, call for random event rolls.

(It's, fairly obviously, not some sinister plot to "change people", either.)

You forgot that "storygame" definition is about authorship, not content

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;687894Bad rules create and enable that kind of GM. How many alignment arguments have we seen since D&D was first published, that basically boiled down to one person-- or the other-- having all of the sophisticated and nuanced moral reasoning of an earnest but not-too-bright schoolchild?

It's gotten so that I have a sticky post for discussions about alignment, which is IMHO the single stupidest, most pernicious piece of bullshit with which Gygax & Co. infested this hobby.  I've yet to see a convincing reason for it to exist, and several excellent reasons to ashcan it.

Go search my advocation for it on this forum. I find it incredibly useful to my campaigns. And as an In Nomine player love arguments of morality, including shades of nuance, I find ideas of broad brush alignment pivotal in easing my campaigns' construction.

Quote from: David Johansen;687908I'm completely convinced that Gary Gygax saw alignment arguments as a feature of D&D, not a bug.

Anyhow, one hard truth about rpgs is that they can really force you to face the fact that some of your friends are unrepentant jackasses.  I don't have a solution to that.  I don't think the solution can be achieved by a game mechanic.  Indeed, I wonder if that's the real fallacy behind the story game movement?  Is it that they believe they can change people with game mechanics?  Talk about confusing fantasy with reality...

The next Story Telling RPG, it will be big for all those with low self-esteem and whatnot; the ANN LANDERS STORY TELLING & HELP GAME by Jackass Games;

"Expect trouble as an inevitable part of life and repeat to yourself, the most comforting words of all; this, too, shall pass."-Ann Landers;  Opening Line from Game.

LOL!:rolleyes:

Quote from: Ravenswing;688044It's gotten so that I have a sticky post for discussions about alignment, which is IMHO the single stupidest, most pernicious piece of bullshit with which Gygax & Co. infested this hobby.  I've yet to see a convincing reason for it to exist, and several excellent reasons to ashcan it.

In general, I don't really think alignment needs to be a mechanical aspect of a game system.

However, in the context of dnd, I can make a case for alignment existing.

Dnd, or at least 1E dnd, has a cosmology that consists of a 'ring' of outer planes, each the embodiment of an alignment. For example, the Devils are from the Nine Hells, and that is the plane where 'Lawful evil' is woven into the fabric of reality. I can see the Hells spawning a race of devils that speak a language mortals call 'Lawful evil'
Also, as Outer planar immortal beings, I can see devils being more naturally Lawful Evil than a mortal human being would be.

So Alignment does make a lot of sense as introduced in dnd.

Quote from: Ravenswing;688044It's gotten so that I have a sticky post for discussions about alignment, which is IMHO the single stupidest, most pernicious piece of bullshit with which Gygax & Co. infested this hobby.  I've yet to see a convincing reason for it to exist, and several excellent reasons to ashcan it.

I hate annoying debates over alignment, but 99 percent of those are a player justifying his chaotic evil acts, trying to claim he is actually not evil.

Quote from: jeff37923;687901I handle this type of guy the same way I handled the DM who insisted that since my character was a Bard that he was gay - I stood up from the table and walked away. If I am not having fun, then why play that game? If you don't play with an asshole, you don't have to worry about it.

Really, what is so hard about that?

But was your Bard a Male Elf?



All kidding aside, that person sounds like a real asshat.

Quote from: Simlasa;687848Except that it does seem to promote that mindset where any creature your PC meets is a 'phat loot' pinata that just needs a few good wacks of a sword to dispense its goodies.
I know not everyone plays that way... but I've met plenty who insist that is how D&D is 'meant to be played!'. Doesn't help that it's the default for a lot of video games as well.
Our group started playing 3.5 recently and I've gone round and round with them regarding their assumptions that the game demands to be played with a focus on the equipment lists. The same players behave quite differently when we have another system on the table.

Of course. I'd rather not play with those folks... and one way I've avoided them is staying away from D&D (not that that's been easy).

Sounds like a playstyle thing to me.

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;687868It's worse than that-- they view the orcs as "noble savages" but still have them behave as standard orcs, and killing them is evil because killing sentient persons is always evil. It doesn't matter how evil the orcs are, because heroes don't kill.

Part of my issue with the alignment system, and enforcing morality mechanics in general; I don't want some smug jerk GM with a C in Ethics 101 judging my moral values according to the standards of PG-13 media when he's running an R-rated game.

The 'killing is always evil' thing should not actually be a problem, but peopel make it a problem.


I see no real issue with a paladin viewing all killing as evil, but still killing to protect others, self defense, to stem the tide of evil, etc...

A paladin could choose to not ever kill, and take his beleiefs to an early grave.

The only time I get annoyed as a player or gm is when a 'good' character commits an obviously evil murder. And claims to be good. Usually with rationalization involved to justify doing whatever they please.


Oh, and as a gm, I don't enforce alignment with a lecture, that sucks. I just do my best to have the setting react accordingly. Paladin becoming an evil reaver? Other paladins might hunt him down eventually.

Quote from: Bill;688093In general, I don't really think alignment needs to be a mechanical aspect of a game system.

However, in the context of dnd, I can make a case for alignment existing.

Dnd, or at least 1E dnd, has a cosmology that consists of a 'ring' of outer planes, each the embodiment of an alignment. For example, the Devils are from the Nine Hells, and that is the plane where 'Lawful evil' is woven into the fabric of reality. I can see the Hells spawning a race of devils that speak a language mortals call 'Lawful evil'
Also, as Outer planar immortal beings, I can see devils being more naturally Lawful Evil than a mortal human being would be.

So Alignment does make a lot of sense as introduced in dnd.

Yeah, this (I'm a big fan of the planar ring, and the planes therein, including the ones not 100% clear-cut (as in CN(E), N(C)E, N(L)E, wich I believe are all present...).

Quote from: The Ent;688113Yeah, this (I'm a big fan of the planar ring, and the planes therein, including the ones not 100% clear-cut (as in CN(E), N(C)E, N(L)E, wich I believe are all present...).

Archeron is one of my favorite dnd planes.

Lawful Lawful Evil (Archeron is in between the LE Nine Hells, and LN Nirvanna)

What's not to love about a plane of huge drifting floating metal blocks that armies of orcs and goblins battle over for all eternity?

It's like Evil Valhalla!