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"Murder-hobos"

Started by RPGPundit, November 02, 2011, 02:00:31 PM

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Enlightened

#225
September 01, 2013, 03:22:57 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;487719A term I saw used on another forum, ostensibly about roleplaying games but mostly about tangential subjects.  It was being used there to refer to D&D Player Characters, suggesting that D&D is a fatally flawed game because instead of producing great heroes, it produces detached vagrants who kill wantonly.

My question: does anyone seriously buy this crap? Is "murder-hobos" an accurate depiction of how you would define the PCs of your D&D game?

RPGPundit

I've personally never seen it used as a bash against D&D as a game.

I -have- however seen it used often by DMs complaining about how their players act.  

There are two guys locally that are full on murder-hobo players.  They do it no matter what the setting or system.  It has nothing to do with D&D.  That's just how they like to play.  

So they definitely exist, and they are not necessarily related to D&D.
 

Saladman

#226
September 01, 2013, 11:42:22 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;687381I don't know, I think sometimes the criticism is useful.  Some introspection is useful as long as it doesn't become dithering naval gazing.  I think it's worthwhile to consider the role of orcs in the setting.  I think it's worthwhile to consider realistic aspects of war and its impacts on individuals in game terms.

It's not too hard to make dungeons forward military bases and leave the women and children far out of reach of the PCs.  Making the orcs despicable makes killing them palatable.  If the orcs were just funny looking folks who just want to be left alone to live as they see fit, murdering them would be unreasonable.

Does the latter case even arise?  Are there jack-ass DMs out there running orcs as noble savages, but not communicating that in any way to the players for some reason, all for a cheap gotcha?

I ask because I've never actually seen that.  In games I've played in an evil alignment really means evil, that the monster has done and will do evil things.  And there's evidence, and history, and sometimes on screen instances of that.

But maybe part of the disconnect with people who talk about murder-hobos is GMs who, short of the bait-and-switch above, don't bother to depict evil as evil, leading to orcs as just an opposing force with no moral dimension to the conflict.

David Johansen

#227
September 02, 2013, 12:41:59 AM
I think orcs often come off more noble than the PCs.  I may have to dig up my copy of Hordes of the Things and quote their comments on orcs.
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Benoist

#228
September 02, 2013, 03:59:42 AM
My orcs are dumb, ugly, mean, evil monsters who will break your bones with a stone just to look at you cry and beg for your life. For the fun of it. Because they can point and laugh, make bets, and then fight amongst themselves because none can remember how to count the coins and they can't trust one another. Because that's what they are. Monsters. Just deal with it, RPGnet.

jibbajibba

#229
September 02, 2013, 04:10:14 AM
Quote from: Benoist;687694My orcs are dumb, ugly, mean, evil monsters who will break your bones with a stone just to look at you cry and beg for your life. For the fun of it. Because they can point and laugh, make bets, and then fight amongst themselves because none can remember how to count the coins and they can't trust one another. Because that's what they are. Monsters. Just deal with it, RPGnet.

Always in all the games you run?
Seems like a missed opportunity.
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BarefootGaijin

#230
September 02, 2013, 04:20:51 AM
Quote from: Enlightened;687388I've personally never seen it used as a bash against D&D as a game.

I -have- however seen it used often by DMs complaining about how their players act.  

There are two guys locally thaet are full on murder-hobo players.  They do it no matter what the setting or system.  It has nothing to do with D&D.  That's just how they like to play.  

So they definitely exist, and they are not necessarily related to D&D.

I have a whole group of them. And as such I have avoided gaming with them recently.
Cthulhu: kill it with fire!
Fate zombie game: kill them with boom stick!
MHR: Screw being heroic! Let's kill things 'for the greater good'.
Diaspora: erm... we have a body in a suitcase and we need to get off planet because we killed stuff.

The Diaspora game is the one I am siting out. I even sent them polite emails and we talked about character depth and "herp derp roleplaying not roll playing".

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TheShadow

#231
September 02, 2013, 04:43:58 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;687369Murder hobos always seemed good-naturedly self deprecating in the vien of KotDT. "elf-games" otoh seems to be used derogatorily

Funny, I always took these expressions the other way 'round.
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The Ent

#232
September 02, 2013, 04:45:59 AM
I don't see either "murder hobos" nor "elf-games" as derogatory really. "Elfgame" is a fun word, and well, "murder hobo" does describe certain play styles fairly well (and not just D&D either. CP2020...).

TristramEvans

#233
September 02, 2013, 05:07:35 AM
Quote from: The_Shadow;687704Funny, I always took these expressions the other way 'round.

May just be the circumstances I encountered them in. 'Elf-games' is widely used by Ettin.

The Ent

#234
September 02, 2013, 05:35:35 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;687708May just be the circumstances I encountered them in. 'Elf-games' is widely used by Ettin.

Eww.

jeff37923

#235
September 02, 2013, 06:02:36 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;687708May just be the circumstances I encountered them in. 'Elf-games' is widely used by Ettin.

Well, context is everything. The context that I often see "murder-hobo" or "elf-game" used in makes them derogatory terms in one instance and acceptable in others. More often than not though, I see the term "murder-hobo" used as a deliberately insulting descriptor.
"Meh."

Ravenswing

#236
September 02, 2013, 07:14:51 AM
Quote from: jibbajibba;687697Always in all the games you run? Seems like a missed opportunity.
The situation for which YMMV was coined, I expect.  For my part, orcs in my campaign are a playable PC race, decidedly second-class citizens and with many bumps and warts, but not -- the prejudiced and naysayers' opinion notwithstanding -- monsters.  But that's me.
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Elfdart

#237
September 02, 2013, 08:17:26 AM
Quote from: Benoist;687694My orcs are dumb, ugly, mean, evil monsters who will break your bones with a stone just to look at you cry and beg for your life. For the fun of it. Because they can point and laugh, make bets, and then fight amongst themselves because none can remember how to count the coins and they can't trust one another. Because that's what they are. Monsters. Just deal with it, RPGnet.

So your orcs are Oakland Raider fans?
Jesus Fucking Christ, is this guy honestly that goddamned stupid? He can\'t understand the plot of a Star Wars film? We\'re not talking about "Rashomon" here, for fuck\'s sake. The plot is as linear as they come. If anything, the film tries too hard to fill in all the gaps. This guy must be a flaming retard.  --Mike Wong on Red Letter Moron\'s review of The Phantom Menace

Bill

#238
September 02, 2013, 09:02:33 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;487719A term I saw used on another forum, ostensibly about roleplaying games but mostly about tangential subjects.  It was being used there to refer to D&D Player Characters, suggesting that D&D is a fatally flawed game because instead of producing great heroes, it produces detached vagrants who kill wantonly.

My question: does anyone seriously buy this crap? Is "murder-hobos" an accurate depiction of how you would define the PCs of your D&D game?

RPGPundit

I don't think dnd has anything to do with 'murder hobo'

Any player in any rpg can be a murder hobo.

The way I define murder hobo, is this:

Players who do not value ties to the environment; they think it is a weakness to have friends, family, or property.

They also use murder as a primary problem solver, even when the murder is actually creating more trouble for them.

So, as a dm, I find that playstyle to be terribly boring.

Almost all players have some degree of murder hobo in them.
A small amount is ok but I don't see the appeal as a player or as a gm for high degrees of murderhoboism.


Nothing to do with dnd though.

David Johansen

#239
September 02, 2013, 10:10:03 AM
My orcs?  Well, they tend to be militant, well organized, well equipped, and ready for action.  And they use assassins against people who have really pissed them off (like PCs).  The orcs aren't as smart as humans on average and are easily swayed by powerful leaders.  But, the big problem is that they're prolific and immortal.  This leads to population spikes followed by famines that lead to sudden and violent wars against their neighbors.

But, of course, when I run Warhammer FRP they're big, green, crazy fungal chavs who run amok screaming WAAAAGH!

I think players who refuse to have ties to the setting tend to be players who've had GMs who would abuse such things for shits and giggles.
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