Quote from: Zak S;517540DestroyYouAlot [is] not exactly right

QuoteBatman's choice of target is what they call in chess a forced move.

[snip]

The exception is in the TOTAL crapsack world: a 1984 or WH40K situation.

In this case, the hero is essentially in a war with injustice and can pick targets based on an overall (chosen) strategy against that overarching injustice.

Good points.  It's kinda the paladin's dilemma.

Running Dark Sun for the first time in *ahem*15 years*cough*cough*, I'm definitely seeing the thing where, "even mercenary assholes look like heroes when the people in charge are total evil assholes, and the good guys end up looking kinda like mercenary assholes".  Which is kinda awesome.

Quote from: Rincewind1;517564I dunno man. Play Dirty had some clues on having supers responsible for their actions. Make a Supers organisation that the player must register or be renegades, that has some laws (no killing, for example), and execute them.

A number of comics have investigated it The Watchman most obviously but even if you have a 'Civil War' style superhero registration and enforcement program how are you going to cover stuff like the cost to repair the road you trashed, the lambpost you used to hit Seagullman with the class action lawsuit that the people on the city bus will take out on you even though you actually did protect them from Red Lightning's death bolts.

You end up with Superhero Insurance and the bill is like $1M a day for minimal coverage

Quote from: jibbajibba;517562Holding PCs responsible for their actions would never work in most RPGs. Supers in particular would be a real problem. Just imagine how big the Avengers insurance policy would have to be to cover the property damage, personal injury claims and psychological damage inflicted on the various members of the public they routinely tangel with.

I don't speak for anyone else, but I think that holding players responsible for their actions would include both the positive and the negative.  So if they cause a huge amount of property damage in a pointless fight with another group of heroes, that would be a net loss.  However, if they overcome a villain who would otherwise have destroyed the city - then the property damage is probably only a minor adjustment in the huge net positive.  

One of the things that regularly bugs me in RPGs is when the authorities are absolutely useless against everything that the PCs fight (monsters, supervillains, etc.), but then suddenly being effective if the PCs step out of line.  

To relate this to the original topic - I think "murder-hobos" is a dumb term that people use as an insult for different terms of play.  I do see a distinction between a bunch of different types discussed:

1) Homeless PCs that wander and engage in violence and mayhem a la The Wild Bunch.  
2) Homeless PCs with no allegiance that wander and engage in more-or-less principled violence - like Pale Rider, High Plains Drifter, etc.  This is the most typical of D&D player characters.  
3) PCs with a nominal home and allegiance who engage in more-or-less principled violence - like the Three Musketeers or Dirty Harry.  

and there are tons of other variations.

Quote from: jibbajibba;517578A number of comics have investigated it The Watchman most obviously but even if you have a 'Civil War' style superhero registration and enforcement program how are you going to cover stuff like the cost to repair the road you trashed, the lambpost you used to hit Seagullman with the class action lawsuit that the people on the city bus will take out on you even though you actually did protect them from Red Lightning's death bolts.

You end up with Superhero Insurance and the bill is like $1M a day for minimal coverage

What is 1 million dollars compared to daily expenses of military anyway? Remember superheroes fight supervillains - they don't smash half a city when they are trying to catch Joe Robber.

Quote from: jhkim;517613One of the things that regularly bugs me in RPGs is when the authorities are absolutely useless against everything that the PCs fight (monsters, supervillains, etc.), but then suddenly being effective if the PCs step out of line.  

Whether this breaks suspension of disbelief really depends on the game. I don't see why town guards would leave the town they're guarding to go dungeon crawling, and with in-city stuff maybe they just don't see the subtle mastermind at work while the PCs are blowing up soup kitchens*.

QuoteTo relate this to the original topic - I think "murder-hobos" is a dumb term that people use as an insult for different terms of play.  I do see a distinction between a bunch of different types discussed:

1) Homeless PCs that wander and engage in violence and mayhem a la The Wild Bunch.  
2) Homeless PCs with no allegiance that wander and engage in more-or-less principled violence - like Pale Rider, High Plains Drifter, etc.  This is the most typical of D&D player characters.  
3) PCs with a nominal home and allegiance who engage in more-or-less principled violence - like the Three Musketeers or Dirty Harry.  

and there are tons of other variations.

Actually, I think that's part of the strength of the phrase, and why it gets reused. It covers a broad enough swath of material that everyone sees the phrase and says "yeah, I've played that." It's also why, whatever it's intended purpose, people like the idea. It distills one of the cooler aspects of a bunch of campaigns that might have little else in common.

See also: Fantasy Vietnam.

*Not something I want to present as typical, so much as a weird anecdote from my own table.

Quote from: Rincewind1;517695What is 1 million dollars compared to daily expenses of military anyway? Remember superheroes fight supervillains - they don't smash half a city when they are trying to catch Joe Robber.

Well the fact is that the heroes would have to pay their own insurance and a million dollars was actually far too low a sum. And people are people. If you save a New Yorker from the Green Goblin by wrapping him up in webbing and dragging him up 40 storeys he is so going to sue your spidery arse.

If you read Kingdom Come there are some interesting implications of what heroes could do if they got out of hand and how you would need to control them.

Quote from: Opaopajr;517547Anyway, to kill a metaphor dead, I always thought it was odd for Batman to try to solve Gotham crime through running around beating people up. I mean, he's Bruce fucking Wayne, prime real estate holder and business employer of the city. He has the ear of every major institution and -- though the city is dark -- it is still functioning, so you think he could accomplish more by being Bruce Wayne than futzing around as Batman. And yet he routinely chose to go street level, like some sort of 6th gen Ventrue with a katana, to "restore order." Personally amusing to me, all that.

There's the minor problem of Bruce Wayne being a bit fucked in the head.  He doesn't put on the mask because it's the most efficient way to fight crime, he puts on the mask as part of a ritual of vengeance that probably keeps him from blowing his head off or hiring Bane to kill every criminal in Gotham.  

Given that Wayne Senior took his son and wife to the shittiest cinema around,rather then just buy frigging film projector if he loved Zorro that much, that took them through the worst shady streets of worst shady city...

It's safe to assume that logic was never Wayne's family strong side.

Quote from: Rincewind1;517729Given that Wayne Senior took his son and wife to the shittiest cinema around,rather then just buy frigging film projector if he loved Zorro that much, that took them through the worst shady streets of worst shady city...

It's safe to assume that logic was never Wayne's family strong side.

Read Marshal Law 'Kingdom of the Blind; for an entire other angle

Quote from: jibbajibba;517730Read Marshal Law 'Kingdom of the Blind; for an entire other angle

This stuff?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal_Law_(comics)

Right now reading Suffering of Young Werter and Age of Bronze, but it looks like stuff I like - British superhero parody.

I doubt it can change my mind on the fact that Wayne Senior was not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Murder Hobos as the Wild Bunch is one thing, however, too often the term is tied to real world baggage like this quote(from TrollCO's current sig).

Quote from: Poor Broken Thing"Other RPGs tend to focus on other aspects of roleplaying, while D&D traditionally focuses on racially-based home invasion, murder and theft."--The Little Raven, RPGnet

But that's flaccid purple you say, people here wouldn't claim that.

O'Rly?

Quote from: CRKrueger;517736Murder Hobos as the Wild Bunch is one thing, however, too often the term is tied to real world baggage like this quote(from TrollCO's current sig).

But that's flaccid purple you say, people here wouldn't claim that.

O'Rly?

heheh he links to one of the monster threads from hell

A finer troll move can not be fathomed.

Well played sir

Quote from: CRKrueger;517736Murder Hobos as the Wild Bunch is one thing, however, too often the term is tied to real world baggage like this quote(from TrollCO's current sig).

But that's flaccid purple you say, people here wouldn't claim that.

O'Rly?

Which is why it's better to say "Gang of Ruthless Outlaws" rather then say "Murder Hobos". Just like with the term heartbreaker - for last few years, I thought that just meant "my variation how game X should had looked", not "why DnD and retroclones are crap". Different meanings, official meaning is more then negatively loaded.

For the second note - orcs are Indians, durrr.

In my current game set in quasi - Ancient world, orcs are exactly what they were in Tolkien - elves changed by unholy rituals, ultimate soldiers, created by Rome in time of greatest peril (Hannibal's attack).

Quote from: Rincewind1;517732This stuff?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal_Law_(comics)

Right now reading Suffering of Young Werter and Age of Bronze, but it looks like stuff I like - British superhero parody.

I doubt it can change my mind on the fact that Wayne Senior was not the sharpest tool in the shed.

That stuff... Kingdom of the Blind is a one off on an alternate Batman called The Private Eye. I think I have an original page from it somewhere actually (the wife tends to get dibs on what goes up on the wall unless I stick to fine art travel prints)

Quote from: jibbajibba;517737heheh he links to one of the monster threads from hell

A finer troll move can not be fathomed.

Well played sir

I missed that thread the first time, and I'm going to go right on missing it.