Well, I don't think things don't change, there are just much higher barriers to change than you might think. For example, I thought you might give Japan as an example where comics on a variety of themes & topics are popular, but I suspect there may be deeper cultural and economic reasons why Japanese comics consumption is so different, beyond tradition.

Europe's a good call, too. There are excellent European comics on a variety of subjects and styles, but I'm not sure if say Möbius or Bilal are any more "mainstream" than the Hernandez brothers.

In any case, I think with games, the market (the public) has a great deal of influence over what's popular. There are many, many publishers trying all sorts of things; have been for a long time, so one isn't exactly starved for variety in games as much as one might have trouble finding people to play them with. (There's plenty of variety in American comics, too--even if the market is dominated by superheroes.)

What do you think about Basic Roleplaying? I'm not the first to say it, but I think it's a good example of a system that offers a relative balance between combat rules and other elements, with good customizability as shown by the various incarnations, but above all a fairly "light touch" where the rules generally aren't "the center" of play. I have to give credit to all the authors, from the original Runequest through CoC to modern BRP and Mongoose RQII: the game never deviated too far from this compared to e.g. GURPS, Hero, or D&D.

Quote from: Elliot WilenWell, I don't think things don't change, there are just much higher barriers to change than you might think. For example, I thought you might give Japan as an example where comics on a variety of themes & topics are popular, but I suspect there may be deeper cultural and economic reasons why Japanese comics consumption is so different, beyond tradition.

Japan uses saner publishing formats, and I think that's a big part of it. You get a handful of stories in Shonen Jump (or whatever) so if one of them's not as good, it's not as big a loss for them as long as they also have more popular titles like Death Note. Allows them to make absolutely silly tennis manga if that's what they feel like. And of course Death Note gets to exist because it's published alongside stuff like Bleach. Lumping comics together in a large, cheaply printed format means you get both experimentation and exposure.

I don't know how useful that publishing format would be to RPGs, though.

Also there's the possibility that I'm confusing correlation and cause. America's "big" publishers might be playing it safe because they're actually tiny (as opposed to bleeding audience because they're playing it safe).

QuoteEurope's a good call, too. There are excellent European comics on a variety of subjects and styles, but I'm not sure if say Möbius or Bilal are any more "mainstream" than the Hernandez brothers.

I was thinking more Tintin and Asterix (though I'm a fan of Mobius... really all of the old Metal Hurlant... and Enrique Fernandez). My point was more that the audience and genre Marvel/DC focus on isn't the only lucrative audience or mainstream genre. I'm not so much championing anything alternative, though the alternative has its place.

And I was kind of extending that to RPGs. As in yes, we've found something that works brilliantly, but limited genres don't make for a robust medium.

QuoteIn any case, I think with games, the market (the public) has a great deal of influence over what's popular. There are many, many publishers trying all sorts of things; have been for a long time, so one isn't exactly starved for variety in games as much as one might have trouble finding people to play them with. (There's plenty of variety in American comics, too--even if the market is dominated by superheroes.)

I think RPGs may be especially vulnerable to the exposure=popularity issue because of the player base. As in I see all this cool stuff happening, but I can usually only find players for D20 based games. Not a huge problem for me, as I love me some D20, but I think it can be kind of limiting.

Also, I think you can count on one hand the number of diceless RPGs. With so few iterations, can we be sure we've exhausted the possibilities? And while recent RPGs have experimented with cards, few (if any) have crunched the rules down to where they could actually fit in a deck of cards and get sold in the impulse-buy section. And what a missed opportunity that we didn't get a proper dungeon-crawler in the Lego Heroica sets. They got custom dice, modular dungeons, and while microfigs mean no (or less) cannibalizing sets, they can keep costs and size down.

QuoteWhat do you think about Basic Roleplaying? I'm not the first to say it, but I think it's a good example of a system that offers a relative balance between combat rules and other elements, with good customizability as shown by the various incarnations, but above all a fairly "light touch" where the rules generally aren't "the center" of play. I have to give credit to all the authors, from the original Runequest through CoC to modern BRP and Mongoose RQII: the game never deviated too far from this compared to e.g. GURPS, Hero, or D&D.

I've got CoC on my shelf, and everything I've read about the rest sounds great. One of these days I'll have the time and the cash, but college and seven day work weeks (saving up for a mac and cs5) have me short on both lately.

I'm worried we're drifting off the topic of murder hobos though. If you want to continue this discussion much further, maybe we should move it to another thread or PMs.

I don't know how useful comic book analogies are here. RPGs come in book format but at the end of the day it is more about playing than reading. You wouldn't just need to have genres that are more attractive to mainstrean audiences, you need to convince them that role playibg is an enjoyable pastime. And you also need your product in places people will see them. I really dont think this is anything new.

There was a period when rpgs and rpg like products were marketed to mainstream audiences. How to host a murder mystery is one example (it is more larp but i still see a connection). And there were other more table top mystery solving games.even now there are rpgs for most major genres (thriller, horror, superhero, fantasy, science fiction, action, etc). The only one that is not getting much love is romantic comedy. Traditional rp genres are more popular than they have been in a while too. The issue is the activity, for a range of reasons, only appeals to a narrow range of customers.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;488572I don't know how useful comic book analogies are here. RPGs come in book format but at the end of the day it is more about playing than reading. You wouldn't just need to have genres that are more attractive to mainstrean audiences, you need to convince them that role playibg is an enjoyable pastime. And you also need your product in places people will see them. I really dont think this is anything new.

I know there's limits to the analogy. Both manga and French comics have benefitted from the anthology format, which wouldn't work for RPGs. They also require less time to get into (I think RPG players are more likely to play one system than comic fans are to read one comic). And of course getting into a new RPG is no good if you can't find anyone to play in.

I do think finding new venues and formats will go a long way towards shaking things up. A LEGO RPG sold with the legos would be great for kids, and one of these days I'm going to put together a proper RPG/CCG hybrid (not that I'd be able to get it sold with the gum like I'd want, but maybe someone will copy me).

QuoteThere was a period when rpgs and rpg like products were marketed to mainstream audiences. How to host a murder mystery is one example (it is more larp but i still see a connection). And there were other more table top mystery solving games.even now there are rpgs for most major genres (thriller, horror, superhero, fantasy, science fiction, action, etc). The only one that is not getting much love is romantic comedy. Traditional rp genres are more popular than they have been in a while too. The issue is the activity, for a range of reasons, only appeals to a narrow range of customers.

Man, I think so much more could be done with mystery. Where did that genre go? Not seeing much good there any more. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. What are you thinking when you say table top mystery games?

There are lots of mystery style rpgs still in print (though everyone disagrees strongly about how it should be done). But i still take your point and it goes back to what I said. There was a time when rpg and rpg like mystery products were more widely available but they were passing fads. How to host a murder mystery is one that still remains. However I think that has become pretty niche.

I beliebe there is actually a lego product like you describe (pretty sure someone here posted an add for it). Great intro to gaming imo. But we've had these kinds of products before as well. I think there was a dungeon crawl boardgame in the late 80s early 90s called hero quest (and i am sure there have bern others). Heck when I was a kid in the early 80s I had D&D action figures.

Quote from: RPGPundit;488399It isn't just me.  Imageshack has decided that they don't really need a significant part of the world, mainly the third world countries, actually seeing their images.  Which to me, makes them fucking useless.

RPGPundit

Wait a minute. You actually can't see Imageshack images in Uruguay? Just checking here..

Quote from: beejazz;488571I think RPGs may be especially vulnerable to the exposure=popularity issue because of the player base. As in I see all this cool stuff happening, but I can usually only find players for D20 based games. Not a huge problem for me, as I love me some D20, but I think it can be kind of limiting.

See, I think this is the real area for innovation...if it's possible. Not mechanics per se, but fostering communities of interest. Developments in technology may help (and have done, actually, in the form of online "sims", even if tabletop players may not be crossing over). Possibly some mechanics could be engineered with an eye to facilitating long-distance play (e.g. Code of Unaris). Another possibility is social organization, which may also be facilitated by technology, such as the story game community, GoPlay NW, Camp Nerdly--none of these are really much use to me because they don't gravitate around the games that appeal to me, but they are examples of what could be done if you're trying to create a market.

QuoteI'm worried we're drifting off the topic of murder hobos though. If you want to continue this discussion much further, maybe we should move it to another thread or PMs.

That's okay, I believe what I wrote above is relevant to my argument in the thread (i.e., it's mainly people, not mechanics, which are directly responsible for style of play), and I think we're approaching closure (or repetition) anyway.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;488578Wait a minute. You actually can't see Imageshack images in Uruguay? Just checking here..

That's right; and not just uruguay but a significant part of the world.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;488626That's right; and not just uruguay but a significant part of the world.

RPGPundit

.....shit.

Ok, what would be a viable third party image hosting site? Most of my images are at Imageshack or Photobucket, and I don't really like Photobucket all that much. I'm rather a newbie when it comes to these kinds of things, so whatever ideas you can float my way would be appreciated.

Upthread someone recommended Imgur, I believe.  There are plenty of image-hosting sites that for whatever reason, operate under the assumption that they should probably let people see images.
Imageshack is not one of them.

RPGPundit

Speaking of murder-hobos, Jeff Rients has released the draft version of Lasfodder, the Warhammer 40.000 equivalent of murder-hobo D&D. It looks playable and absolutely entertaining. :cool:

Quote from: Melan;516986Speaking of murder-hobos, Jeff Rients has released the draft version of Lasfodder, the Warhammer 40.000 equivalent of murder-hobo D&D. It looks playable and absolutely entertaining. :cool:

That is pure, undiluted awesome.

Quote from: RPGPundit;487719A term I saw used on another forum, ostensibly about roleplaying games but mostly about tangential subjects.  It was being used there to refer to D&D Player Characters, suggesting that D&D is a fatally flawed game because instead of producing great heroes, it produces detached vagrants who kill wantonly.

My question: does anyone seriously buy this crap? Is "murder-hobos" an accurate depiction of how you would define the PCs of your D&D game?

RPGPundit

The answer is NO, fuck no, if you don't agree find another game to play in. I'm a simple girl and I like simple solutions. YMMV

Any game I agree or invited to play in better damn well have more than that going on.  Let alone whatever fools talk me into running the damn game.

The origin of murder(ous) hobo.

Quote from: hexgrid;487904I always thought the murder-hobo thing was kind of like this- a sort of joking acknowledgement that D&D "heroes" often aren't really very heroic. Not an attack on D&D or anyone's play style.

Yeah, I really don't get the outrage.