"Mother-May-I"

Tommy Brownell · June 02, 2012, 02:06:28 PM

Quote from: thedungeondelver;544998I'll cop to having thrown down the VG insult about 3e but it had more to do with the way Feat Trees worked; they seemed very much like how you built your powers in Diablo II, the way you'd stack one together so you'd have the prerequisite for the next, and so on. To be fair, that kind of "meet a requirement, that fulfills a prerequisite, so you can pick and choose this next thing" could maybe be traced back to the AD&D bard, but then the AD&D bard isn't based on a computer game's expectation of "character build". If anything it's the other way around.

Oh, gotcha, and I'd agree with that. Having to basically map out your character from level 1 to 20 (and beyond, depending on the game) in order to have anything resembling a "good build" is annoying as Hell.

And I say this as a guy that looooooves lots of options in creation and advancement.

John Morrow · June 02, 2012, 02:07:04 PM

Quote from: Benoist;544860Yes. I actually intended to add vectors on the sketch with corresponding dialog, but lacked the time.

You can add vectors to an erasable map board, too, and there companies that even sell vector markers for miniature games if they are important, because if the combat lasts for more than a few rounds, you are going to be erasing and moving those letters and vectors constantly, which seems a lot more complicated and time-consuming to me than moving a pawn across the surface of a map grid, which a player can do themselves.

Again, it's not a lack of imagination. It's a matter of wondering why you think this is better than the alternative, which is sketching the situation out on an erasable map grid and representing the combatants with pawns, dice, or miniatures.

gleichman · June 02, 2012, 02:07:37 PM

Quote from: John Morrow;544989And with that diagram, I wouldn't have made the false assumptions I made with the description only, so why not just cut to the chase and sketch it out in the first place?

Even with the diagram, there are huge problems, for one it doesn't have a scale (and isn't really drawn to scale) and that means that any options using AoE runs us back to 20 questions.

It would also serve poorly for any individually resolved initiative system and/or those with Zone of Control rules which is most of the games I play.

As described (both in its description and in its use) it's still basically freeform gaming ran in zero-dimensions.

Benoist · June 02, 2012, 02:12:01 PM

Quote from: John Morrow;545003You can add vectors to an erasable map board, too

Nobody's against the use of an erasable veleda board (which I mentioned in an earlier post, you'll note) if you find it more practical.

Quote from: John Morrow;545003Again, it's not a lack of imagination.

I get that. You want precision and clarity and you get that best through physical representations at the game table. It's cool. But not everyone is you, not everyone needs it, and some people might actually think that ruins their fun playing the game. Playing the other way, without miniatures and markers and the like, works for a lot of people, and it's functional way to play for them.

Quote from: John Morrow;545003It's a matter of wondering why you think this is better than the alternative, which is sketching the situation out on an erasable map grid and representing the combatants with pawns, dice, or miniatures.

Reminds me of a quote attributed to Gary Gygax: There is no intimacy; it's not live. [he said of online games] It's being translated through a computer, and your imagination is not there the same way it is when you're actually together with a group of people. It reminds me of one time where I saw some children talking about whether they liked radio or television, and I asked one little boy why he preferred radio, and he said, "Because the pictures are so much better."

Many people prefer to play without miniatures because the pictures are so much better.

Benoist · June 02, 2012, 02:14:44 PM

Quote from: gleichman;545004Even with the diagram, there are huge problems, for one it doesn't have a scale (and isn't really drawn to scale) and that means that any options using AoE runs us back to 20 questions.

You on the other hand are totally reaching with these types of remarks and I really can't take anything you say about this seriously. When you start saying that the gazillion people playing that way must be imagining having no problem with their game, that they're deluded or intellectually inferior, you lose the argument. Pretending that D&D really is about numbers is just the icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned: all these people playing for the worlds of their imaginations, they must be completely out of their minds to have fun that way!

gleichman · June 02, 2012, 02:15:15 PM

Quote from: Benoist;545005It reminds me of one time where I saw some children talking about whether they liked radio or television, and I asked one little boy why he preferred radio, and he said, "Because the pictures are so much better." [/I]

Many people prefer to play without miniatures because the pictures are so much better.

THIS IS YOUR REAL ANSWER!

It's because you can't imagine yourself restrained by the rules and the reality they represent. Thus you must be free of them. You must be a special snowflake able to alter that reality at whime.

Anything else you're going on about is simple denial of that core need inside yourself.

Marleycat · June 02, 2012, 02:16:17 PM

QuoteMany people prefer to play without miniatures because the pictures are so much better.

This is so quotable. I use mini's for critical junctures but otherwise it clutters my mind with too much multitasking it's the main reason I can't really get into 4e beyond the ADEU system for wizards that is.

QuoteTHIS IS YOUR REAL ANSWER!

It's because you can't imagine yourself restrained by the rules and the reality they represent. Thus you must be free of them. You must be a special snowflake able to alter that reality at whime.

Anything else you're going on about is simple denial of that core need inside yourself.

What an ass. What if say you have a particular handicap that affects the way you process information?

crkrueger · June 02, 2012, 02:18:14 PM

Can we all just agree to this...

1. Some people immerse better with miniatures, this does not make them robots, they are not doing it wrong.
2. Some people immerse better without miniatures, this does not make them simpletons, they are not doing it wrong.
3. Using maps and minis shows everyone where things are without the need for questions to determine where things are.
4. Not all game systems or playstyles require the level of detail that maps & minis provide.

...and move along?

Benoist · June 02, 2012, 02:18:15 PM

Quote from: gleichman;545009THIS IS YOUR REAL ANSWER!

It's because you can't imagine yourself restrained by the rules and the reality they represent. Thus you must be free of them. You must be a special snowflake able to alter that reality at whime.

Anything else you're going on about is simple denial of that core need inside yourself.

Holy shit. Have you ever played a role playing game in your life, dude? :jaw-dropping:

I've played with miniatures, and without miniatures, for the record. I can actually enjoy both. I just don't want to have D&D pigeon-holed onto the grid by default, so that I can use miniatures sometimes, and not use them other times, however I see fit, and preferably without the grid itself in both instances.

crkrueger · June 02, 2012, 02:19:52 PM

Quote from: gleichman;545009THIS IS YOUR REAL ANSWER!

It's because you can't imagine yourself restrained by the rules and the reality they represent. Thus you must be free of them. You must be a special snowflake able to alter that reality at whime.

Anything else you're going on about is simple denial of that core need inside yourself.

The ironic thing is that Ben actually plays with minis, he could buy a car if he sold all his Dwarven Forge stuff. It's just that he doesn't *always* play with minis, and sees both ways as valid.

Marleycat · June 02, 2012, 02:21:33 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;545014The ironic thing is that Ben actually plays with minis, he could buy a car if he sold all his Dwarven Forge stuff. It's just that he doesn't *always* play with minis, and sees both ways as valid.

I know. It makes me LOL.

I am far more in the no mini's camp than he is basically because of my handicap and gaming space more than anything else. But I still use them.

gleichman · June 02, 2012, 02:44:34 PM

Quote from: Marleycat;545010What an ass. What if say you have a particular handicap that affects the way you process information?

If you can't play the game right, then I would play a different game (there are many options out there). Or at least admit that I can't play it right.

Sort of like a number of people on this board have admitted that they find double digit additional to burdensome, and like the advantage/disadvantage rules better because it doesn't task them.

Marleycat · June 02, 2012, 02:46:51 PM

Quote from: gleichman;545024If you can't play the game right, then I would play a different game (there are many options out there). Or at least admit that I can't play it right.

Sort of like a number of people on this board have admitted that they find double digit additional to burdensome, and like the advantage/disadvantage rules better because it doesn't task them.

Geez, you're a jewel your mother must be so proud!!

Sacrosanct · June 02, 2012, 02:50:06 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger;545014The ironic thing is that Ben actually plays with minis, he could buy a car if he sold all his Dwarven Forge stuff. It's just that he doesn't *always* play with minis, and sees both ways as valid.

Isn't it funny? I have largely harped that I prefer gameplay without needing minis. And that's true. But I also have about 300 of the little bastards

Hell, I've got a bunch that are made from lead

For the record, I don't want a system to be dependent on minis or maps in any way, but if they are needed, go for it. The difference is that I want pretty much full functionality of game rules without them, and the problem I have with 4e (and 3e to an extent) is that so many of the core rules revolve around using maps and minis as base functionality.

*Edit* Oh, and I painted them in 1981-83 as well, so be gentle on the crappy paint job

Benoist · June 02, 2012, 02:50:27 PM

Quote from: Marleycat;545027Geez, you're a jewel your mother must be so proud!!

She is. It's unfortunate she suffers from mild mental retardation and believes in her schizophrenia to be a top NASA scientist, though. So I guess I would take her conclusions with a huge grain of salt on that one.