Quote from: Sacrosanct;540691The Sentinel/Gauntlet are pretty good ones that I don't hear very often.

Dammit, quit stealing all the good answers, new meat.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;540675I believe it's Jeremy Goodwin.

Better known these days as Jes Goodwin:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jes_Goodwin

Quote from: Glazer;540827Better known these days as Jes Goodwin:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jes_Goodwin

Oh, no shit?  Well that makes a lot of sense, then.

B1, In Search of the Unknown - the first adventure I ever DM'd, and one I still come back to every few years.  The key-it-yourself approach is nice and allows for a variety of approaches: full of undead, bandit hideout, etc.  Great introduction to dungeoncrawling for players, too, featuring a good amount of dungeon tricks, traps and timewasters to keep them on their toes.

N1, Against the Cult of the Reptile God - a little linear, but there's a lot you can do with this one.  Great little base town, and the dungeon section is small, but cleverly designed.  A little before-session elbow grease on the DM's part can make this one shine.

I guess I have a thing for low-level modules...

Quote from: KenHR;540893N1, Against the Cult of the Reptile God - a little linear, but there's a lot you can do with this one.  Great little base town, and the dungeon section is small, but cleverly designed.  A little before-session elbow grease on the DM's part can make this one shine.

Oh yeah, totally this.

QuoteI guess I have a thing for low-level modules...

I mean, they're campaign-starters - probably the most important module is the one that sets you off on the track.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;540900Oh yeah, totally this.



I mean, they're campaign-starters - probably the most important module is the one that sets you off on the track.

As an old school gamer, that reminds me of an argument that never really made much sense to me.  We've all heard people say that AD&D sucks because at high levels, MUs dominate everyone.  But hardly anyone ever played a MU that had access to 8th and 9th level spells (or even 7th).  The overwhelming amount of time gamers played AD&D, it was level 1-10, and that's why we see so many people talk about how important low level modules were to the game.  So when I hear people say a game is broken based on an aspect that only covers about 10% of total game play, it seems odd to me to make that argument.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;540905As an old school gamer, that reminds me of an argument that never really made much sense to me.  We've all heard people say that AD&D sucks because at high levels, MUs dominate everyone.  But hardly anyone ever played a MU that had access to 8th and 9th level spells (or even 7th).  The overwhelming amount of time gamers played AD&D, it was level 1-10, and that's why we see so many people talk about how important low level modules were to the game.  So when I hear people say a game is broken based on an aspect that only covers about 10% of total game play, it seems odd to me to make that argument.

That is because the term 'High Level' has changed, in AD&D Magic Users started outshining Fighters and Rogues at 5th level.

Quote from: jadrax;540907That is because the term 'High Level' has changed, in AD&D Magic Users started outshining Fighters and Rogues at 5th level.

In 3E you mean. Never ran into the issue at all in AD&D even at 12th level.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;540905As an old school gamer, that reminds me of an argument that never really made much sense to me.  We've all heard people say that AD&D sucks because at high levels, MUs dominate everyone.  But hardly anyone ever played a MU that had access to 8th and 9th level spells (or even 7th).  The overwhelming amount of time gamers played AD&D, it was level 1-10, and that's why we see so many people talk about how important low level modules were to the game.  So when I hear people say a game is broken based on an aspect that only covers about 10% of total game play, it seems odd to me to make that argument.

There's an assumption now that, just because the numerical range of levels goes to 20, that you're supposed to actually PLAY through 20 levels.  Which, nowadays, takes about 6 months of Sundays, so I guess that's a thing, now.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;540912In 3E you mean. Never ran into the issue at all in AD&D even at 12th level.

Exactly.

Quote from: jadrax;540907That is because the term 'High Level' has changed, in AD&D Magic Users started outshining Fighters and Rogues at 5th level.

LOL in YOUR games maybe.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;540912In 3E you mean. Never ran into the issue at all in AD&D even at 12th level.

No, in 1st. And actually in 3rd it is no where near as bad. Wizards don't really start to shine until around 9th level.

I never had a problem with M-Us outpacing fighters and other characters, either (though to be honest, I've never had a party get above 8th level or so...and when that happened, it was after a couple years).  A lot of the arguments about power levels are very theoretical...just because your M-U made it to fifth level in my game doesn't mean you're gonna learn Fireball.

Actually, Fireball is almost always a pretty rare spell in my campaigns, in the hands of one or two wizards who aren't terribly interested in sharing.

Sure, in theory the M-U can replicate just about any class's skill set with magic, but they only have so many slots available, only so much foresight to memorize the correct spells, etc.  Actual play has shown me that those concerns are terrifically inflated 95% of the time.

Quote from: jadrax;540915No, in 1st. And actually in 3rd it is no where near as bad. Wizards don't really start to shine until around 9th level.

I guess we have wildly different experiences then.  A 5th level MU in AD&D still has an AC around 7-9, 15hp and the TH table little better than a normal human.  Which that part is OK, because they weren't meant to be in melee combat.

So that leaves spells.  In AD&D, you couldn't make a dozen scrolls like you could in 3e.  And a 5th level MU only has a handful of spells which can easily run out after one encounter.

So I guess I'm saying I don't see how a 5th level MU outshines a fighter in 1e.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;540925I guess we have wildly different experiences then.  A 5th level MU in AD&D still has an AC around 7-9, 15hp and the TH table little better than a normal human.  Which that part is OK, because they weren't meant to be in melee combat.

So that leaves spells.  In AD&D, you couldn't make a dozen scrolls like you could in 3e.  And a 5th level MU only has a handful of spells which can easily run out after one encounter.

So I guess I'm saying I don't see how a 5th level MU outshines a fighter in 1e.

Well for starters combat is only (at most) 33% of the game, and the Wizard gets spells that help with everything. But more than that, the Fighters core basis is consistency, the Fighter and Rogue pretty much always perform the same. The Wizard only gets to contribute when it really matters. However, to most people, contributing when it really matters is more more impressive than contributing all the time.*

The wizard basically has the cheat codes for the game. A well timed Sleep or Charm or Fireball effectively trivialises the content, or even worse (under a Bad GM or Module) becomes the only character class capable of resolving the plot.**

And let us be clear, by all accounts this is by design. It is not a accident or a mistake, but is what Gygax wanted the game to be like. I don't even thing its always that bad a thing, mechanical balance is a) overrated, b) unachievable and c) bland. A good GM can make sure it is not detrimental by maintaining character balance*** and by deliberately screwing over the Wizard (such as denying them spells you think are unbalanced, such as Fireball above).****

I am not sure why this rely ended up with so many footnotes.


*This is not by any means universal, and arguably people who do not feel like that are the ones that spend all their time complaining about Vancian Casting.
**There was a Dungeon Complex published, I think in White Dwarf, were casting Knock was the only way to get to the final encounter. You have to hope no one would be stupid enough to do that sort of thing today...
***very different to mechanical balance.
****Although this can be overdone, nothing makes Fighters feel even more second class than everything they fight ignoring them to attack the wizard as he's the dangerous one.

Quote from: jadrax;540937The wizard basically has the cheat codes for the game. A well timed Sleep or Charm or Fireball effectively trivialises the content, or even worse (under a Bad GM or Module) becomes the only character class capable of resolving the plot.**

Resolving the plot? Machete think you not understand old school.