You know, a huge problem with gaming today comes down to players wanting to be GMs, and GMs wanting to be players.

On p. 8 of the AD&D DM's guide, Gary Said:

"This book (ed:the DMG) is the exclusive precinct of the DM...peeping players there will undoubtedly be, but they are simply lessening their own enjoyment of the game by taking away some of the sense of wonder that otherwise arises from a game that has rules hidden from participants."

On a practical level, such advice is pretty well unmanageable, but it underlies something that I think is very true.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit...unmanageable...

...and, given parts of what you find in the DMG, tends to bite you firmly in the ass when it is followed.

Quote from: RPGPunditOn a practical level, such advice is pretty well unmanageable, but it underlies something that I think is very true.

So share!  What's the underlying, very true thing?

Flyingmice I think hit on it indirectly, at least for me, in a thread a long time back where he talked about the excitement of reading a new game.

To be a bit more explicit:

Quote from: The House At Pooh Corner, near the back"Well" said Pooh, "what I like best---" and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

Anticiptation, you silly old Bear.  Imaginaton of something greater than the actual.  Funny we should be having a Mythos thread bouncing around the top at the same time.

Yeah, blakkie, that's cool.  I'm mostly interested in what Pundit originally meant though, so I'm gonna wait to hear from him.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou know, a huge problem with gaming today comes down to players wanting to be GMs, and GMs wanting to be players.

On p. 8 of the AD&D DM's guide, Gary Said:

"This book (ed:the DMG) is the exclusive precinct of the DM...peeping players there will undoubtedly be, but they are simply lessening their own enjoyment of the game by taking away some of the sense of wonder that otherwise arises from a game that has rules hidden from participants."

On a practical level, such advice is pretty well unmanageable, but it underlies something that I think is very true.

RPGPundit

Hey, pundit, you know that gary gygax is overweight, right? So shouldn;t you be mocking him instead of praising him?

Hmm...good point, very well made. :suicide:

Quote from: Dominus NoxHey, pundit, you know that gary gygax is overweight, right? So shouldn;t you be mocking him instead of praising him?

Nox, mate, you make a lot of good points and good posts here on therpgsite.  Don't give ammunition to the guys who want to paint you otherwise.

And I'm left with the opposite feeling.  I want my players to feel free to contribute to the game on a mechanical level, and I feel like hiding information about how the game works prohibits them from doing so.  I want to talk about games with the people I play with, encourage them to run their own games, and explore the hobby.

If you've never ever played an RPG, and then play one in which you're not required to know more than 5% of the rules, or even no rules at all, that could be very cool. Your PC just does his thing, and the GM tells you whether he succeeds or not.

Of course, that fictive scenario broke down 2 nanoseconds after the RPG Big Bang when the first player had a peek at the DMG and we were all chased out of paradise into the wastelands of knowledge.

Also, the rules info distribution between PHB and DMG just feels random in many instances, i.e. your xp tables are in the one, your to hit tables are in the other, and your spell info is in both.

Quote from: RPGPundit"This book (ed:the DMG) is the exclusive precinct of the DM...peeping players there will undoubtedly be, but they are simply lessening their own enjoyment of the game by taking away some of the sense of wonder that otherwise arises from a game that has rules hidden from participants."

 Delving back into my high school memories...

Our DM once threw a dragon at the party.  We were a fairly hardy bunch, and had managed to overcome most obstacles up until that point.  I think the most powerful character in the group was a mighty 3rd level!  So when we stumbled upon a huge chamber, with a tremendous pile of treasure (the likes of which we had never seen before), the fact that it was guarded by a steaming, blue dragon seemed like a mere inconvenience.

I think my dwarf was the only one to last until the second round.

The look of utter shock on the faces of each player as they watched their character get shredded was only matched by the look of wonder as it was subsequently revealed that the dragon (and treasure hoard) was actually an illusion.

Such a trick would never work these days... if a party of 3rd level characters came across a blue dragon, some smartarse would invariably shout out "No way dude, the CR of a dragon is far too high.  It's got to be an illusion."

So yeah, Gary's advice may be impractical, but I think he's right about trying to maintain that sense of surprise and wonder in the game.

In hindsight, I would have thought the Monster Manual was the book the players shouldn't be looking at...

I think a much better case can be made for the Monster Manual but even then the creatures linked to the summoning spells, druid class stuff, and general pet/mount are sort of an exception. Besides with the advent of adding monsters taking levels and/or progressing in size in 3e I think there is plenty o' mystery left after you've read the book even within the rules before you go and tweak a monster's stat block.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkSuch a trick would never work these days... if a party of 3rd level characters came across a blue dragon, some smartarse would invariably shout out "No way dude, the CR of a dragon is far too high.  It's got to be an illusion."

Don't say never. I put a group of 1st level against a CR 13 beastie.

Seanchai