Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1039939Um...what words exactly do they use? The idea of Gruumsh wounding Corellon and elves being born from his blood goes back to 1E (I don't own D&DG, but Roger Moore's article on "The elven point of view", as reprinted in Best of Dragon III, makes reference to it).

Was it there, or in Complete Book of Elves, where the elven gods started being genderfluid?
For all the complaints of about WotC breaking things, this all seems to be the same stuff that's been broken since forever.

Elves--either cool and mysterious or annoying and faux (depending on how sick of them you are)-interesting since [strike]2018[/strike] [strike]2000[/strike] [strike]1989[/strike] [strike]1977[/strike] [strike]1974[/strike] [strike]1937[/strike] forever.

Quote from: Madprofessor;1040080Amen! I can't stand the overwritten word bloat.  It has become near ubiquitous in the industry.  It's not only a waste of my time and shelf space, it crushes creativity.  The brilliance of a module like X1, B2, or settings like the original Greyhawk or Wilderlands was that it gave you just enough to fire the imagination without filling it.  I play RPGs to create my own worlds, characters and stories. Modern RPG products work too hard to fill in the blanks rather than provide tools or seeds for creativity.

Regardless, if I pick up someone else's ideas on this stuff, I'd best be prepared for it not to meet my own expectations.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040084Was it there, or in Complete Book of Elves, where the elven gods started being genderfluid?
For all the complaints of about WotC breaking things, this all seems to be the same stuff that's been broken since forever.

One of my players has Complete Book of Elves and I went through it and did not see any mention of elves being gender fluid at all.

Quote from: David Johansen;1040056Which led me to envisioning them snapping their fingers in rhythm and starting to dance while the leader sings.  I expect the Drow would love Grease.

Are you thinking of West Side Story?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040084Was it there, or in Complete Book of Elves, where the elven gods started being genderfluid?
For all the complaints of about WotC breaking things, this all seems to be the same stuff that's been broken since forever.

  Corellon's "male/female/neither/both" bit is mentioned in the Moore article.

Quote from: jeff37923;1040111Are you thinking of West Side Story?

Probably is. Both are good though.

Reason I made the comment I did in the first place was a particular similarity between Crawford's take on "Good" Drow and how certain violent activist groups.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040084Was it there, or in Complete Book of Elves, where the elven gods started being genderfluid?
For all the complaints of about WotC breaking things, this all seems to be the same stuff that's been broken since forever.

It's in the gods of the Demi-Human section in the original Unearthed Arcana, which in turn were originally in Dragon.

But it goes back to the Greeks, I guess. Hermaphrodite. I believe in AD&D cosmology, they share the same plne.

QuoteLike Corellon Larethian, Labelas Enoreth variously appears as both male
or female (and sometimes both or neither

Quote from: KingCheops;1040071The repetition in the Halfling and Gnome chapter was pretty bad.

Yeah, and the repetition in the Halfling and Gnome chapter was pretty bad too.

This is the source of all the furor about "gender fluid elves". It is in a box that shows it to be flavor text, and it clearly says DM decides, player cannot.

"THE BLESSED OF CORELLON

Ever changing, mirthful, and beautiful, the primal elves could assume whatever sex they liked. When they bowed to Lolth's influence and chose to fix their physical forms, elves lost the ability to transform in this way. Yet occasionally elves are born who are so androgynous that they are proclaimed to be among the blessed of Corellon - living symbols of the god's love and of the primal elves' original fluid state of being. Many of Corellon's chief priests bear this blessing.

The rarest of these blessed elves can change their sex whenever they finish a long rest -- a miracle celebrated by elves of all sorts except drow. (The DM decides whether an elf can manifest this miracle.) Dark elves find this ability to be terrifying and characterize it as a curse, for it could destabilize their entire society. If Corellon's blessing manifests in a drow, that elf usually flees to the surface world to seek shelter among those dedicated to Corellon"

Wow, so radical, so threatening to my very being, such an affront to pure, original vision of Gygax ...

Here is the 1980 Deities & Demigods words for Corellon:

"Corellon Larethian represents the highest ideals of elvenkind: "he" is skilled in all the arts and crafts, and is the patron of music, poetry, and magic. Corellon is alternately male or female or neither. The god is also mighty in battle, and is said to have personally banished such demons as Llolth from the sunlit Upperworld. Elven lore states that the race of elves sprang from the drops of blood Corellon shed in this epic battle."

Now, this was actually created by Jim Ward, but the book was written by him and Rob Kuntz who both played in Gygax's early Greyhawk campain and Kuntz even co-wrote the original supplement with Gygax, so I doubt the apple is far from the Gygax tree. Plus, Gygax wrote the foreword to the book.

So anyone complaining about how the 5e SJW developers are changing the game actually have it in reverse and they are not playing the game as intended.

The sex changing bit is only a very small part of what I dislike here. What I really don't like is that they try to take a dozen different elf stories from different worlds and combine them into one origin. I like it better when the elves (and other races) of the different D&D worlds are different from one another with unique bits by world. Here it all gets blended up and served as a pointy-eared smoothie.

Interesting that in the old story Lolth drew the blood from Corellon that would become the elves whereas in the new version she herself came from his blood drawn by Gruumsh (Lolth was one of the first primal elves that Corellon elevated to godhood).

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1040132So anyone complaining about how the 5e SJW developers are changing the game actually have it in reverse and they are not playing the game as intended.

That must be why there has been so much self-congratulatory back slapping going on then.:rolleyes:
http://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/03/14/dungeons-and-dragons-genderfluid-elves/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/03/26/mordenkainens-tome-of-foes-is-the-book-with-the-gender-fluid-elves-right/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/136405-D-D-Developers-Explain-Choices-on-Gender-Diversity-in-New-Edition

Comments like this for instance:

QuoteHow deluded must some neck-bearded grognards be to think that opening up this beloved fantasy game to more people is in any way a bad thing?  

http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/2018/03/17/genderfluid-elves-the-end-of-dungeons-dragons-or-just-another-troll-mad-about-something-that-shouldnt-be-controversial/

The primogenitor deity of elves being both male and female that is not unusual at all: if you look at pantheons in the real world, you will find a whole bunch of these: Greek mythology has Agdistis, Hermaphroditus and Aphroditus while the Egyptian pantheon had Hepi, the Nile God as well as the primogenitor god/godess Atum. Moreover, the Hindu religion has Ardhanarishvara, another deity connected with fertility and genesis.

There is nothing to suggest that the the witer's of the elven mythology were intending to grant elves this new ability.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1040162That must be why there has been so much self-congratulatory back slapping going on then.:rolleyes:

Yes, yes, both sides (of any issue) can blame the other for starting it/not shutting up about it/celebrating their own rightness on said issue. In other news that never changes, more at 11.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1040138What I really don't like is that they try to take a dozen different elf stories from different worlds and combine them into one origin. I like it better when the elves (and other races) of the different D&D worlds are different from one another with unique bits by world. Here it all gets blended up and served as a pointy-eared smoothie.

Now that's worth complaining about. I'm not particularly pumped about any of the published worlds (and the one that I do like, Mystara/Known World, has a bunch of 'gods' no one but the most die-hard fans even remember the names of). The fact that Corellon (/Lolth/Gruumsh) exist in both GH and FR seems odd to me. Anyone know how that happened in the first place?

QuoteInteresting that in the old story Lolth drew the blood from Corellon that would become the elves whereas in the new version she herself came from his blood drawn by Gruumsh (Lolth was one of the first primal elves that Corellon elevated to godhood).

I assume that was done to make the elven pantheon smaller in the greater world-context. There's one big elven god and all the others (including their anti-partner) are subordinate gods. If you want Corellon involved in something bigger, more 'creation myth'-y, you bring in an outside (orcish) god.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040192Yes, yes, both sides (of any issue) can blame the other for starting it/not shutting up about it/celebrating their own rightness on said issue. In other news that never changes, more at 11.

That wasn't quite my point, though, was it? Context and all that, hmm?

Here. You deserve one of these.

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Cool, I guess.

It kind of smacks of the "Black Panther was the first ever black superhero movie!" bullshit.  I'd also point out that Zeus and Loki were known to get their swerve on in non-human forms too.  Mythology isn't LGBTQ it's Pan-Sexual!  :eek:

Also the repetition in the Halflings and Gnomes chapter was particularly galling.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1040132So anyone complaining about how the 5e SJW developers are changing the game actually have it in reverse and they are not playing the game as intended.

And I suppose you believe the declaration that Lando is pansexual is based on his character's lore and is not related at all to today's climate. :rolleyes: