For my money... it's gotta be Giants, and to a lesser extent Elementals. I just can never really come up with a satisfying way to fit them into the world.
Giants work best in their own world. You can't hardly have a dungeon with a bunch of other monsters in it...and giants. On the other hand, Against the Giants showed that they make much more sense when they're in their own stockades and fortresses, and everything is scaled to them, rather than when they're forced to fit into an otherwise human-scaled dungeon.
Elementals aren't really part of this world, the only way ther're supposed to be used is as summons or aberrant appearances.
AD&D Intellect Devourers do it to me. Seriously, almost impossible to hit or harm significantly, and enough abilities to get a character alone and slaughter him, practically no save.
I get what the concept intends, but it's really tough to make the model work as intended.
The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant use giants quite well I thought. Far away from human settlements for the most part. The trolls and mountain giants in the Hobbit were also pretty good. Oh and of course the giants from Game of Thrones.
I'm not sure about monsters I can't fit in, but I always had trouble taking beholders seriously. Krang from the TMNT is all I hear, hyuhhuhyuhubbleurgh.
Yeah, either "A" giant, or a bunch of giants but by themselves maybe with a few servitor monsters (like in the G series).
For me it's Intellect Devourers. Scary looking (well, I think they're scary looking - brains on legs yeeg), scary description...aaand absolutely no threat to anyone who isn't a psionic.
Flumphs.
I've never really come up with anything engaging to do with mummies.
I like integrating giants into "evil hordes", aka its not uncommon for a hill giant to show up and declare rulership over a bunch of orcs or goblins, just to have slaves.
I agree with Mummies being challenging. They are common enough in tomb scenarios, but often come off just as high level zombies.
I rewrote the Intellect Devourer into something that messes with anything with intelligence, not just psionic beings. In my OD&D games, the beastie has an 5 foot (close range) aura that drains 1 point of INT and 1 point of WIS each round and its tactic is to pounce on a foe, hold it down and eat its thoughts and memories until the victim is comatose...leaving the meat body for another creature to feast upon.
Those centaur - lizard things from Warhammer. Also, dragonogres (Ogredragons? Hells if I remember the proper spelling) - a good example that sometimes, something that ought to be at least cool (it's ogres AND dragon AND it eats lightning!), isn't because it's just one gimmick too many.
On that note - Games Workshop certainly didn't know what to do with Fimirs, and FOR SHAME, because they are one of the more clever, dangerous and creepy antagonists (a tribe of swamp creatures that summon fog and constantly capture human/elven women for their unholy offspring? Come on).
Quote from: Rincewind1;643875Those centaur - lizard things from Warhammer.
The Zoats? Ha! Yes, I thought they were awesome but never really had much use for them. I kept expecting some kind of supplement to give us more information on them, figured they'd make a great alternative PC race, but they got written out of WH continuity before that happened. As it is, they just get a paragraph in the beastiary alluding to them being in some way descended from the Slann, and users of powerful magics never described.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;643843For me it's Intellect Devourers. Scary looking (well, I think they're scary looking - brains on legs yeeg), scary description...aaand absolutely no threat to anyone who isn't a psionic.
Well, they need to be changed to make them a threat. Use Fiend Without a Face (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiend_Without_a_Face) (1958) as a guideline (I swear, that's where the idea must have come from...) Psionics (or spells that have to do with thought, mind, or illusion) attract them, but they feed on anything intelligent.
I think for me, most of the monsters are potentially usable, at least as one-offs. I don't like the idea of monsters as species, anyways. The ones I have trouble using are the ones that seem incoherent or just ridiculous. Stuff with random body structure that seems to have no connection to its behavior, and random abilities or defenses.
I'll probably get into a cannon flame war with Warhammer fans but Dragon Ogres were originally Zoats and were corrupted by chaos before the coming of the Slann.
The thing about Dragon Ogres is that they're world weary immortal killing machines. In one game I had one show up on a battle field only to be challenged by a zoat. They fought to the death while lightning rained down from the heavens on them and the Empire and Chaos Maurauder forces withdrew in awe and horror. After the Dragon Ogre expired (to be fair it had caught a couple cannonballs before the Zoat showed up) the PCs who were hiding in the woods wound up being close enough to hear it speaking sorrowfully to itself as it slipped away "Oh my brother, what have you done to yourself and our world?"
Ah well, for me the hardest monsters to do well and make work have to be slimes oozes and jellies. They're just kinda dull.
Leprechauns.
They just slow my games down with absurdity. They just.... elude me.
Quote from: LibraryLass;643786For my money... it's gotta be Giants, and to a lesser extent Elementals. I just can never really come up with a satisfying way to fit them into the world.
I like having the Giants be a precursor civilization, as in, sometime after the downfall of the "HPL" type beings but maybe roughly at the same time as the dragons, elves (well, maybe after the dragons but before the elves...) and so on were really powerful, the Giants ruled great big empires. One idea I've had for years is to have at least one human civilization in my setting be the descendants of humans enslaved by the Giants (who rebelled and stole tech and magic from the Giants, natch).
In the actual gameplay, though, I tend to use Giants as packs of big dangerous humanoid-shaped warriors my players' dudes can fight & kill when ogres become too wimpy to be a threat save in huge hordes (Giants are less irritating than Trolls imo)...
I've used outta-control fire elementals trying to burn the world!!! as a plot point, and also used earth elementals as tomb guardians.
Quote from: David JohansenAh well, for me the hardest monsters to do well and make work have to be slimes oozes and jellies. They're just kinda dull.
I want at least a couple mid-level "Lovecraftian" caves inhabited by slimes/oozes/jellies in the campaign I'm working on. At least, dungeon levels dominated by the things.
Personally I just could never bring myself to use the MODRON from AD&D 1E MM2 book from the plane of Nirvana, I tried to write up a few scenarios once but each time it fell apart as I just couldn't come to grips with their strange appearances, looking like 2x4's balls, cubes and a pyramid and other weird shapes. They looked as though they would fit better in a Sci-Fi universe than a Fantasy setting. IMO
Quote from: thedungeondelver;643843For me it's Intellect Devourers. Scary looking (well, I think they're scary looking - brains on legs yeeg), scary description...aaand absolutely no threat to anyone who isn't a psionic.
On the plus side though, chances are that someone will bring cheese popcorn to the game and you have ready made miniatures. :D
Beholders. Cool looking, iconic, interesting abilities, scary, but...just never found a rationale way to insert them into our campaigns.
Quote from: LibraryLass;643786For my money... it's gotta be Giants, and to a lesser extent Elementals. I just can never really come up with a satisfying way to fit them into the world.
I use elementals fairly often; perhaps because they can be summoned.
And I do planar games failry often.
Giants I guess I use fairly often depending on the setting.
I think its simply hard to fit so many critters into the ecosystem.
Giants really need to be contained in some way. Consider how much it would take to provide for the needs of a group of 50 giants - feeding, clothing, building shelters, making giant sized weapons, and more.
Quote from: talysman;643912I don't like the idea of monsters as species, anyways.
This. I've really lost my taste for DM-as-Subcreator, and I find D&D's implied gonzo kitchen-sink setting utterly incompatible with it anyway.
I don't really have the OP's problem per se, because any time I run a D&D-like campaign the first thing I do is page through the Monster Manuals and select at most a double handful of monsters that will show up in the campaign. Given that, just about any monster will work if placed in context with other monsters with a similar theme or some common element.
Quote from: Mistwell;644146Beholders. Cool looking, iconic, interesting abilities, scary, but...just never found a rationale way to insert them into our campaigns.
I think the Beholders insert themselves into whatever setting they damn well please! :)
Quote from: Bill;644186I think the Beholders insert themselves into whatever setting they damn well please! :)
What I mean is, we could just never find a good reason to justify why this smart, powerful creature would be lurking around in a smelly old dungeon with trolls and such. Nor could I see them getting away with, say, manipulating an entire village without the villagers just fleeing. I suppose that later scenario has some potential though, a beholder as the power behind the throne, or behind the head of a gang, or something like that.
Quote from: Mistwell;644190What I mean is, we could just never find a good reason to justify why this smart, powerful creature would be lurking around in a smelly old dungeon with trolls and such. Nor could I see them getting away with, say, manipulating an entire village without the villagers just fleeing. I suppose that later scenario has some potential though, a beholder as the power behind the throne, or behind the head of a gang, or something like that.
A beholder does have charm person and charm monster as I recall.
Easy to charm an entire town and disintegrate those that resist the charm.
All the beholder needs is a 'curtain'
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
Charm an illusionist.
But I agree its tricky for most settings.
Quote from: Lynn;644183I think its simply hard to fit so many critters into the ecosystem.
Giants really need to be contained in some way. Consider how much it would take to provide for the needs of a group of 50 giants - feeding, clothing, building shelters, making giant sized weapons, and more.
Depends, the more supernatural forms of giants can be excused from a lot of that. Frost giants, fire giants, storm giants etc. Played properly those guys can be more terrifying than dragons, but they stick to their own environment, they may not even need food in the form of meat or vegetables.
Quote from: Bill;644192Easy to charm an entire town and disintegrate those that resist the charm.
This and a half. Obviously it depends on exactly what a beholder wants - and that might be nothing more than "destroy shit" - but it seems a pretty obvious and OSR-themed setup for the Evil Baron Spikyhelm who's been ravaging the neighbouring territories to be the puppet of evil Court Wizard Bushybrows who is himself the puppet of the beholder in the catacombs underneath the castle keep. Even better, the beholder was summoned by the wizard in an ill-advised attempt at coercing magical power from it or something.
Quote from: Bill;644192A beholder does have charm person and charm monster as I recall.
Easy to charm an entire town and disintegrate those that resist the charm.
All the beholder needs is a 'curtain'
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
Charm an illusionist.
But I agree its tricky for most settings.
Yes, the beholder's definitely more of a "boss" than just a random encounter, outside of Underdark at least. They are a pretty good monster, though - I learn to fear the Beholder when I played in an Underdark campaign.
For me, Giants were always more of a wilderness encounter than a dungeon encounter.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;644617For me, Giants were always more of a wilderness encounter than a dungeon encounter.
RPGPundit
This, I've never had Giant encounters in dungeons myself (allthough that will likely change when(ever) I manage to get a megadungeon rolling).
Usually either rampaging Giant army* or say a lair of the things (in the case of Hill Giants that's just a small basic cave with the Giants and their Ogre/Orc/Wolf/whatever servants and treasure).
*=rather small, mind. maybe a dozen of the monsters
Quote from: The Ent;644646This, I've never had Giant encounters in dungeons myself (allthough that will likely change when(ever) I manage to get a megadungeon rolling).
Usually either rampaging Giant army* or say a lair of the things (in the case of Hill Giants that's just a small basic cave with the Giants and their Ogre/Orc/Wolf/whatever servants and treasure).
*=rather small, mind. maybe a dozen of the monsters
I think the 'against the Giants' modules work because of remote locations. Giants that live near humans are just...large humans?
Aboleths
Formians
For Flumphs, I found their Pathfinder write-up quite inspiring.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/flumph
Quote from: Bill;644667I think the 'against the Giants' modules work because of remote locations. Giants that live near humans are just...large humans?
Agreed.
I've tried to avoid the "Giants = big humans" thing myself and think I've managed, allthough I admit that my Hill Giants = big Ogres pretty much. :D
Quote from: daniel_ream;644184I don't really have the OP's problem per se, because any time I run a D&D-like campaign the first thing I do is page through the Monster Manuals and select at most a double handful of monsters that will show up in the campaign. Given that, just about any monster will work if placed in context with other monsters with a similar theme or some common element.
I think this is particularly good advice. It's not so much coming up with an interesting use for a reasonable selection of monsters, but of feeling that you have to use ALL the available monsters, and that is ecosystem defying. We have many different species on earth; most of them live nowhere near you.
Quote from: TheHistorian;645073I think this is particularly good advice. It's not so much coming up with an interesting use for a reasonable selection of monsters, but of feeling that you have to use ALL the available monsters, and that is ecosystem defying. We have many different species on earth; most of them live nowhere near you.
I would go one step futher.
Just make up your own monsters. Really I haven't opened a monster manual for years.
I see a movie and think hey that dragon was cool and just stat it up.
Most of my monsters are humans If I have monsters I want them to be pretty unique (ie they might be unique or there may be a small population of them).
In my last game the monsters were a big tentacled sea monster that lived in an underground cave, brass and crystal golems that came in Humanoid 7 feet tall, and hound, 3 feet tall 6 feet long.
Seemed to work perfectly well.
Quote from: Mistwell;644190What I mean is, we could just never find a good reason to justify why this smart, powerful creature would be lurking around in a smelly old dungeon with trolls and such. Nor could I see them getting away with, say, manipulating an entire village without the villagers just fleeing. I suppose that later scenario has some potential though, a beholder as the power behind the throne, or behind the head of a gang, or something like that.
They hover and they shoot rays out of their eyes. Run them like the Martians from War of the Worlds. Or daleks.
Weren't beholders as originally conceived of an artificial race created by really super-powerful wizards to guard super-important treasure?? Like, what happens when you're too high level and you're guarding stuff too important to be handled by living statues or gargoyles?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;645537Weren't beholders as originally conceived of an artificial race created by really super-powerful wizards to guard super-important treasure?? Like, what happens when you're too high level and you're guarding stuff too important to be handled by living statues or gargoyles?
There's nothing in Greyhawk that suggests that, although there's not much in Greyhawk that suggests anything about their origin, intent, or personality, other than "These monsters are avaricious. They are neutral in nature, although they tend to be chaotic."
What you may be thinking of is the later AD&D monster called the Spectator (I think.) It's not artificial, but it's summoned to act as a guardian for treasure. It's so devoted to that task that, as long as no one tries to take the treasure, it really doesn't care what else people do and will chat with passers-by.
I don't have my RPG books onhand right now, but I believe this was in the description of Beholders in either the 1e MM or in the Rules Cyclopedia (probably copied from one of the BECMI books).
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;645851I don't have my RPG books onhand right now, but I believe this was in the description of Beholders in either the 1e MM or in the Rules Cyclopedia (probably copied from one of the BECMI books).
RPGPundit
Companion set, originally. I believe I recall it from the RC also.
Quote from: LibraryLass;645976Companion set, originally. I believe I recall it from the RC also.
Ah hah! Thank you! I knew I hadn't just dreamed this up out of nowhere.
This has never really come up as a problem because I have never felt compelled to use a particular monster just because stats exist for it.
The monster manuals have always been akin to a salad bar of creatures.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;646354This has never really come up as a problem because I have never felt compelled to use a particular monster just because stats exist for it.
The monster manuals have always been akin to a salad bar of creatures.
I think its that way for most people. Its just that there are certain monsters that are considered D&D "Classics" and its those (or rather, the few of those that are sometimes complicated to put cohesively into a campaign) that we're talking about here.
RPGPundit