I'm curious how 5e's bounded etc will play into this... from what folks have been saying, a pack of wolves seems like it should be a credible threat for a long time.

Quote from: talysman;806057And to a certain extent, neither would be able to, because if we're going to talk realistic beasts, we're overlooking something. Unless cornered or protecting young, animals don't typically attack groups of humans. Predators go for solitary targets, or try to isolate one target from a group. Herd animals generally avoid humans completely unless stampeding or otherwise in terror. Ape troups might attack multiple humans if they outnumber them by a good margin. A rogue beast might approach a larger group of humans, but they are scary precisely because they behave abnormally.

If you really want players to fear wild animals, focus on ambushes and picking off the party one by one.

This is a good post. I think it is realistic that even large predatory animals should feel like exciting but only semi-dangerous foes to a group of confident, armed humans. I wouldn't be afraid of a pack of big dogs or wolves if I had a half dozen mates who liked to fight and had stout branches and rocks in their hands. No wild animal would really attack a group like that. Maybe a bear would, though I doubt that too. A much more plausible scenario is the lone character faced with a group or single large beast. That would likely be a tough fight in most game systems unless the character has excellent equipment, magical powers or is powerful

Quote from: Will;806111I'm curious how 5e's bounded etc will play into this... from what folks have been saying, a pack of wolves seems like it should be a credible threat for a long time.

Havent had a chance to test it out yet. It is on the to-do list.

A mage with shaped fireball? Not a chance for the wolves. Otherwise?

At a glance. Not sure. Low HP for the wolf is the main factor. But in numbers they all get advantage and assuming they number more than the adventurers can kill in a single round, its likely some are going to connect with a chance of knocking prone someone in the process. If a few can drag down a character then that could be some serious trouble.

Just a guess though.

I've had a few GM's who made wild animals a credible threat to low level characters. And I just finished a Pathfinder campaign in which insect swarms were our group's worst nightmare. I'm not sure if those fall under the category of "beasts" but I used to consider them a mundane threat, and I now have a whole new respect for them.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;806374I've had a few GM's who made wild animals a credible threat to low level characters. And I just finished a Pathfinder campaign in which insect swarms were our group's worst nightmare. I'm not sure if those fall under the category of "beasts" but I used to consider them a mundane threat, and I now have a whole new respect for them.

Indeed, insects and the like should be more frightening than higher animals. I mentioned above that animmals tend to avoid humans unless they greatly outnumber them or there is a greater threat than personal safety. But swarms of insects know no fear or reason. They won't necessarily hunt you, but they act much more on an almost automatic level, heading towards food when that is their need. Bees and the like fight to the death to defend the collective.

Quote from: CRKrueger;805981RuneQuest 6 animals can be very tough.  If you encounter an angry Grizzly Bear, you'd better have a spear or something to try and keep it off you through distance or impaling it, otherwise you're probably gonna get one-shotted if you're not wearing any armor.  A pack of wolves surrounding you, tripping you and going for the legs, then once you're down going for the throat, you're pretty fucked if they outnumber you.

As CRKruger pointed out, RuneQuest 6 is specifically designed to make common beasts very scary indeed. I've never been a fan of making something like a lion 'dangerous' by just inflating its HPs and attack %. That's boring, doesn't scale and to be blunt is pretty unimaginative. Lions are scary because they hunt in a pack, use ambushes and drag you down with a maintained bite - rendering the bitten limb useless if its not your throat they are crushing to asphyxiate you!

For RQ6 we incorporated several pages dedicated purely to how creatures fight, their behaviour and how to maximise their threat. Almost every creature in the book has specific tactics and associated abilities which mimic how they act in real life.

None of my beasts just stands there and exchanges blows. They charge, trample and depart; or grab and pull victims underwater to drown; or enter close combat/grappling range so the PC cannot use their beloved sword; mob with superior numbers to swamp defences; snatch a single victim and carry them off before others can come to their aid; use trips or leaping to force PC's prone; ambush to inflict a maiming wound then flee, and so on.

A bear or lion might seem more intimidating on paper, but my players more rightly fear large herbivores, crocodiles and insect swarms over all else. After all, there are more ways to terrify characters than just incrementally reducing their HP's to zero...

Yep, the "swarms" in 5e can deal out alot of hurt if you run into more than one.

In Arrows of Indra, wild animals can be a very credible threat for quite a while of low-level play.

Well finally did that run through with the 5e wolves.

It took 8 Wolves 5 rounds to kill my level 7 Warlock.

A: I way overestimated Armor of Agathys.
B: I underestimated that pack bonus.
C: I totally did not expect to be so thoroughly screwed when they dragged me down.

Wolves started at 120ft when spotted. I cast Armor of Agathys first.
Next round dropped Hunger of Hadar and caught four of them in the zone. Getting out of the zone two would fail their saves and not be seen again.
Third round saw four of them getting initiative and were all over me. First one hit and I failed the knockdown save. Blasted the two that hadnt moved yet with Eldrich Blast  and only hit one who did not go down. Armor of Agathys killed three that chewed on me.
But that left three and on the next round all three got initiative. But I survive and take out one more with Eldrich Blast.
Two left on round 5. I am down to 2 HP. One gets initiative, hits and thats the end of me as he gets max damage. Damn overkill wolf!

To be fair though that was a tough encounter and wolves get some notable advantages if things go their way. And would have been more so had they gotten closer before being noticed. I'd have used Arms of Hadar instead I think. Not sure if it would have helped. Maybee two castings could have dropped all eight.

All three of us against say 16 or 24 wolves? Probably would have gone more in our favour. Though not so sure on 24!

So seems to me that yes, at least in 5e some animals can be a viable threat even so far in under the right circumstances. YMMV of course. But I personally am glad to see this.

One of the scariest creatures in Hackmaster is something called a Dog.  I'm not sure what that is , but there is a dog pack mauling mechanic that makes a group of them brutal.  They WILL pull you to the ground and then you WILL be chewed to bits.

Quote from: Pete Nash;806411A bear or lion might seem more intimidating on paper, but my players more rightly fear large herbivores, crocodiles and insect swarms over all else. After all, there are more ways to terrify characters than just incrementally reducing their HP's to zero...

I picture Pete Nash's players gingerly creeping through a jungle on crooked limbs, twisted muscles covered in old claw marks and scars, at the ready, clutching their pouches full of Khitai black lotus blossom powder.

I think it is handled just fine. Play a party of normal men, even men-at-arms and those large beasts will be truly terrifying.

Once you add in class levels any expectation of simulation/reality in comparison with actual human beings goes bye bye. The whole point of gaining levels and power is being able to handle fighting things that make ordinary men shit their pants as a normal part of adventuring.

If you enjoy games in which the characters never become larger than life and ordinary beasts stay scary then just play ordinary men in whatever system you are running.