I moved to another country for work. Now that I'm settled I played a one shot with a group I found in an expat group chat. I then joined a skyp call with some people from the chat who were pitching campaign and character ideas. Long story short, I want to die. It felt like most of them were actively trying to be "quirky". I should have expected this, since the one shot used 5E, but I fear the chances of GMing a sane campaign is going to wither on the vine.
Be quirky in return.
Play a human fighter with a wife, kids and extended family to support. He's adventuring to get his family a better life. He has no interest in the other characters' drama; he's here to provide for his family and drama gets in the way of getting the job done so he can home and see them (also insist on plenty of downtime for precisely this reason).
A lot of the 5e groups I've experienced won't have any idea what to do with that. It will (sadly, not literally) break their brains.
Can you give a specific example? I'm not sure what you mean here.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 28, 2024, 08:59:10 AM
Play a human fighter with a wife, kids and extended family to support. He's adventuring to get his family a better life. He has no interest in the other characters' drama; he's here to provide for his family and drama gets in the way of getting the job done so he can home and see them (also insist on plenty of downtime for precisely this reason).
Some players don't make backgrounds like this because there's a certain sort of GM that will punish them for it. They will immediately kill off the family or have them kidnapped or something.
One additional thing. They apparently missed the memo that 5+ page backstories filled with trauma dumping were supposed to be a joke.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 28, 2024, 08:59:10 AM
Be quirky in return.
Play a human fighter with a wife, kids and extended family to support. He's adventuring to get his family a better life. He has no interest in the other characters' drama; he's here to provide for his family and drama gets in the way of getting the job done so he can home and see them (also insist on plenty of downtime for precisely this reason).
A lot of the 5e groups I've experienced won't have any idea what to do with that. It will (sadly, not literally) break their brains.
Actually not a bad idea. I might try this if I ever do another one shot where I'm the player.
I am a millennial, and will generally defend my generation. That said, one of the criticisms of the millennials (and I presume zoomers as well) is that they have been utterly poisoned by the overuse of irony in pop-culture. They're a product of the late-stage artistic stagnation the major entertainment mediums are locked in, so their entire cultural frame of reference is genre subversion and deconstruction. Everything is "post"-something, and the dreaded "genre trope" is a bogeyman to avoid at all costs. Far too many younger players are positively allergic to sincerity, and are basically too insecure to play a character straight in a roleplaying game. They have to try and be the class clown and show how cool they are with their "quirky" ideas.
That said, don't be a doomer about it just yet. If you're willing to take up the GM-ing torch, some of this can be overcome by good leadership. First of all, don't run 5e. And I don't say that for any game system reasons. 5e is by design a game with no strong theme or tone of it's own. If you instead run something with a strong internal tone, like say Cyberpunk, Deadlands or Call of Cthulhu, you might be surprised at how willing even younger players are to fall in line with it. Generally speaking, GMs have a lot of power to set the tone of a game and players are likely to follow. For my Roll20 games I have a "table rules" post I put out with the game listing, and the first item is "play sincerely". I make it very clear up front that I have no time for joke characters or people who play ironically, and generally I get agreement with that from across generations. A lot of younger people are desperate for some sincerity in their entertainment, even if they don't consciously realize it. When players do try to get "quirky" I have NPCs react the way real people would, with eye-rolling and irritation, and treating them like children. When the overplayed joke starts to fall flat, people usually stop it.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 28, 2024, 08:59:10 AM
Be quirky in return.
Play a human fighter with a wife, kids and extended family to support. He's adventuring to get his family a better life. He has no interest in the other characters' drama; he's here to provide for his family and drama gets in the way of getting the job done so he can home and see them (also insist on plenty of downtime for precisely this reason).
A lot of the 5e groups I've experienced won't have any idea what to do with that. It will (sadly, not literally) break their brains.
Yeah, I've done something similar in the past. Play a straight-laced, well-meaning, mature character, and play that character as intelligent and capable. The irony brigade can't deal with a Dudley Doright character who isn't being played as a joke. They'll try to make fun of you for a bit, but it won't work because your character exposes all their childish insecurities. You'll end up having to play the party's dad initially, but you'll also end up being the de facto leader, and after a while they'll start falling in line.
EDIT: You do have to be a little bit careful with this approach. Playing a realistically good person is way more difficult than playing a self-serving dickhead or a stereotype. I have seen people try this and fall horribly flat because they aren't good leaders. Trying this approach and failing is one of the reasons for the "lawful stupid paladin" stereotype.
Quote from: Hzilong on March 28, 2024, 09:34:56 AM
One additional thing. They apparently missed the memo that 5+ page backstories filled with trauma dumping were supposed to be a joke.
Who the hell writes a 5 page back story for a character that could be dissolved by green slime at 1st level? Or was this a Radiant Citadel type game?
Quirky in what way?
Like all non-humans? Thats as old as D&D, probably older.
Or they all had weird and overly elaborate backgrounds? Thats been around too. Just not as overwhelming as it feels modern games seem to obsess over.
Quote from: Omega on March 28, 2024, 08:53:50 PM
Quirky in what way?
Like all non-humans? Thats as old as D&D, probably older.
Or they all had weird and overly elaborate backgrounds? Thats been around too. Just not as overwhelming as it feels modern games seem to obsess over.
Thanks. That was my question too.
Hadn't really thought about it, but yeah. I was the only human character at the one shot. The elf at the table I won't decry as it was literally their first ever D&D game. Other characters were a tiefling, triton, and a Dragonborn. It was just more the way they acted during the game and subsequent Skype discussion. Like angsty high school theater kids with main character syndromes.
"Deeds? Nah, I'm special just because of who I am."
I think part of the problem is instant gratification. Some people just want to declare that they're special and maybe write a special backstory as proof. The whole playing-the-game thing takes too long and just gets in the way.
Starting with a nobody character and becoming a hero over a long and arduous campaign is obviously a million times more rewarding. You can tell people this, but unless they experience it for themselves, it won't have much effect.
Like others have said, maybe picking a simpler/tighter game is the way.
Maybe you can pitch a one shot or short campaign in a swords and sorcery setting where everyone is either a human fighter or thief. Pitch it as a simple way to learn a new system. Hyperborea, DCC Lankhmar, or First Hungarian D20 Society materials (AD&D/OSRIC/S&W) would fit, while allowing some "oh so random" moments as a comprise. Even if they insist on playing a wizard or other class, those systems are tightly contained so it won't be so bad.
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 28, 2024, 11:19:13 AM
I am a millennial, and will generally defend my generation. That said, one of the criticisms of the millennials (and I presume zoomers as well) is that they have been utterly poisoned by the overuse of irony in pop-culture. They're a product of the late-stage artistic stagnation the major entertainment mediums are locked in, so their entire cultural frame of reference is genre subversion and deconstruction. Everything is "post"-something, and the dreaded "genre trope" is a bogeyman to avoid at all costs. Far too many younger players are positively allergic to sincerity, and are basically too insecure to play a character straight in a roleplaying game. They have to try and be the class clown and show how cool they are with their "quirky" ideas.
That said, don't be a doomer about it just yet. If you're willing to take up the GM-ing torch, some of this can be overcome by good leadership. First of all, don't run 5e. And I don't say that for any game system reasons. 5e is by design a game with no strong theme or tone of it's own. If you instead run something with a strong internal tone, like say Cyberpunk, Deadlands or Call of Cthulhu, you might be surprised at how willing even younger players are to fall in line with it. Generally speaking, GMs have a lot of power to set the tone of a game and players are likely to follow. For my Roll20 games I have a "table rules" post I put out with the game listing, and the first item is "play sincerely". I make it very clear up front that I have no time for joke characters or people who play ironically, and generally I get agreement with that from across generations. A lot of younger people are desperate for some sincerity in their entertainment, even if they don't consciously realize it. When players do try to get "quirky" I have NPCs react the way real people would, with eye-rolling and irritation, and treating them like children. When the overplayed joke starts to fall flat, people usually stop it.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 28, 2024, 08:59:10 AM
Be quirky in return.
Play a human fighter with a wife, kids and extended family to support. He's adventuring to get his family a better life. He has no interest in the other characters' drama; he's here to provide for his family and drama gets in the way of getting the job done so he can home and see them (also insist on plenty of downtime for precisely this reason).
A lot of the 5e groups I've experienced won't have any idea what to do with that. It will (sadly, not literally) break their brains.
Yeah, I've done something similar in the past. Play a straight-laced, well-meaning, mature character, and play that character as intelligent and capable. The irony brigade can't deal with a Dudley Doright character who isn't being played as a joke. They'll try to make fun of you for a bit, but it won't work because your character exposes all their childish insecurities. You'll end up having to play the party's dad initially, but you'll also end up being the de facto leader, and after a while they'll start falling in line.
EDIT: You do have to be a little bit careful with this approach. Playing a realistically good person is way more difficult than playing a self-serving dickhead or a stereotype. I have seen people try this and fall horribly flat because they aren't good leaders. Trying this approach and failing is one of the reasons for the "lawful stupid paladin" stereotype.
This is an excellent post on many levels and sound advice. Kudos.
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 28, 2024, 11:19:13 AM
I am a millennial, and will generally defend my generation. That said, one of the criticisms of the millennials (and I presume zoomers as well) is that they have been utterly poisoned by the overuse of irony in pop-culture. They're a product of the late-stage artistic stagnation the major entertainment mediums are locked in, so their entire cultural frame of reference is genre subversion and deconstruction. Everything is "post"-something, and the dreaded "genre trope" is a bogeyman to avoid at all costs. Far too many younger players are positively allergic to sincerity, and are basically too insecure to play a character straight in a roleplaying game. They have to try and be the class clown and show how cool they are with their "quirky" ideas.
That said, don't be a doomer about it just yet. If you're willing to take up the GM-ing torch, some of this can be overcome by good leadership. First of all, don't run 5e. And I don't say that for any game system reasons. 5e is by design a game with no strong theme or tone of it's own. If you instead run something with a strong internal tone, like say Cyberpunk, Deadlands or Call of Cthulhu, you might be surprised at how willing even younger players are to fall in line with it. Generally speaking, GMs have a lot of power to set the tone of a game and players are likely to follow. For my Roll20 games I have a "table rules" post I put out with the game listing, and the first item is "play sincerely". I make it very clear up front that I have no time for joke characters or people who play ironically, and generally I get agreement with that from across generations. A lot of younger people are desperate for some sincerity in their entertainment, even if they don't consciously realize it. When players do try to get "quirky" I have NPCs react the way real people would, with eye-rolling and irritation, and treating them like children. When the overplayed joke starts to fall flat, people usually stop it.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 28, 2024, 08:59:10 AM
Be quirky in return.
Play a human fighter with a wife, kids and extended family to support. He's adventuring to get his family a better life. He has no interest in the other characters' drama; he's here to provide for his family and drama gets in the way of getting the job done so he can home and see them (also insist on plenty of downtime for precisely this reason).
A lot of the 5e groups I've experienced won't have any idea what to do with that. It will (sadly, not literally) break their brains.
Yeah, I've done something similar in the past. Play a straight-laced, well-meaning, mature character, and play that character as intelligent and capable. The irony brigade can't deal with a Dudley Doright character who isn't being played as a joke. They'll try to make fun of you for a bit, but it won't work because your character exposes all their childish insecurities. You'll end up having to play the party's dad initially, but you'll also end up being the de facto leader, and after a while they'll start falling in line.
EDIT: You do have to be a little bit careful with this approach. Playing a realistically good person is way more difficult than playing a self-serving dickhead or a stereotype. I have seen people try this and fall horribly flat because they aren't good leaders. Trying this approach and failing is one of the reasons for the "lawful stupid paladin" stereotype.
I see what you're saying but I fail to see how this will work. The pondscum who are blighting RPGs right now HATE the idea of anyone playing differently from them. They will spin anyone trying to play as you suggest as some kind of bully and ostracise them from the group for making people not feel heckin valid. Either way, you're better off leaving and finding a better group. They do exist. But people need to understand that RPGs are still a niche hobby with a small audience. There is no golden age for RPGs. Only a very specific brand of DnD and nothing else. And if you come to that group expecting to play an actual game they will exclude you. Because that's just not what they want. They want to be told a story where they can pretend to be their favorite Critical Role personalities. They genuinely understand no other way of being and refuse to understand because then they'd be a heckin gross chud neckbeard like those other meanie people who don't play the "official" DnD as Matt Mercer intended.
You can find a group. Just don't play DnD. Even something as simple as Savage Worlds or Call of Cthulhu is going to have more sensible players that suit your playstyle more.
The problem with being quirky in turn is that then you are doing something other than playing the game you want to be playing, in the (probably vain) hope that you'll make others stop being quirky. My solution would just be to walk away and find another group.
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 28, 2024, 11:19:13 AM
Play a straight-laced, well-meaning, mature character, and play that character as intelligent and capable. The irony brigade can't deal with a Dudley Doright character who isn't being played as a joke. They'll try to make fun of you for a bit, but it won't work because your character exposes all their childish insecurities. You'll end up having to play the party's dad initially, but you'll also end up being the de facto leader, and after a while they'll start falling in line.
This is gonna be a hot take, but that Chris Pine D&D movie (which I thought was pretty good, honestly...it was literally a D&D campaign) had an unironic Paladin who they tried to make the butt of jokes, but he just kept up his sincere desire to destroy evil and eventually all the other characters just sort of fell in line, even becoming the de facto leader, as you stated. It was pretty interesting because, in real life, that's exactly what happens. REAL leaders lead. They don't succumb to outside influences, and they don't let monkeys or jesters or class clowns derail their goals. And if they never break and keep on their grind, people will legitimately respect them.
Quote from: Brad on March 29, 2024, 08:33:51 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 28, 2024, 11:19:13 AM
Play a straight-laced, well-meaning, mature character, and play that character as intelligent and capable. The irony brigade can't deal with a Dudley Doright character who isn't being played as a joke. They'll try to make fun of you for a bit, but it won't work because your character exposes all their childish insecurities. You'll end up having to play the party's dad initially, but you'll also end up being the de facto leader, and after a while they'll start falling in line.
This is gonna be a hot take, but that Chris Pine D&D movie (which I thought was pretty good, honestly...it was literally a D&D campaign) had an unironic Paladin who they tried to make the butt of jokes, but he just kept up his sincere desire to destroy evil and eventually all the other characters just sort of fell in line, even becoming the de facto leader, as you stated. It was pretty interesting because, in real life, that's exactly what happens. REAL leaders lead. They don't succumb to outside influences, and they don't let monkeys or jesters or class clowns derail their goals. And if they never break and keep on their grind, people will legitimately respect them.
Very true.
Quote from: Brad on March 29, 2024, 08:33:51 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 28, 2024, 11:19:13 AM
Play a straight-laced, well-meaning, mature character, and play that character as intelligent and capable. The irony brigade can't deal with a Dudley Doright character who isn't being played as a joke. They'll try to make fun of you for a bit, but it won't work because your character exposes all their childish insecurities. You'll end up having to play the party's dad initially, but you'll also end up being the de facto leader, and after a while they'll start falling in line.
This is gonna be a hot take, but that Chris Pine D&D movie (which I thought was pretty good, honestly...it was literally a D&D campaign) had an unironic Paladin who they tried to make the butt of jokes, but he just kept up his sincere desire to destroy evil and eventually all the other characters just sort of fell in line, even becoming the de facto leader, as you stated. It was pretty interesting because, in real life, that's exactly what happens. REAL leaders lead. They don't succumb to outside influences, and they don't let monkeys or jesters or class clowns derail their goals. And if they never break and keep on their grind, people will legitimately respect them.
Main problem I had with that movie is throughout most of it, the paladin did most of the fighting alone until the last boss fight when the whole party FINALLY fought as a team.
Quote from: Brad on March 29, 2024, 08:33:51 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 28, 2024, 11:19:13 AM
Play a straight-laced, well-meaning, mature character, and play that character as intelligent and capable. The irony brigade can't deal with a Dudley Doright character who isn't being played as a joke. They'll try to make fun of you for a bit, but it won't work because your character exposes all their childish insecurities. You'll end up having to play the party's dad initially, but you'll also end up being the de facto leader, and after a while they'll start falling in line.
This is gonna be a hot take, but that Chris Pine D&D movie (which I thought was pretty good, honestly...it was literally a D&D campaign) had an unironic Paladin who they tried to make the butt of jokes, but he just kept up his sincere desire to destroy evil and eventually all the other characters just sort of fell in line, even becoming the de facto leader, as you stated. It was pretty interesting because, in real life, that's exactly what happens. REAL leaders lead. They don't succumb to outside influences, and they don't let monkeys or jesters or class clowns derail their goals. And if they never break and keep on their grind, people will legitimately respect them.
I fully agree. Thought the movie was about as good as D&D movie could reasonably be expected. As soon as that Paladin character turned up I mentally started counting down to what I assumed was an inevitable heel-turn in the second act. Was hugely (and pleasantly) surprised that didn't happen. They let him just be a good guy.
Well, for better or worse, I've agreed to run a game for three of the people who were present at the call. I don't recall if they were the annoying ones. I'll see if they behave different in a longer game compared to a one shot.
Quote from: Hzilong on March 31, 2024, 07:42:48 AM
Well, for better or worse, I've agreed to run a game for three of the people who were present at the call. I don't recall if they were the annoying ones. I'll see if they behave different in a longer game compared to a one shot.
Thinking positively, maybe you'll be able to convince them to play a little better. But thinking realistically. They're going to be surrounded by people who play like them and only you who plays like you do. Peer influence is a heck of a thing. I wish you good luck, and if all goes well, get them into other games. I always recommend Savage World Pathfinder for DnD cultists as it has a lot of the DnD trappings and terminology converted to Savage World. Making it way easier to explain to people who are only familiar with DnD.
I wonder what happens if we spring a "cliche" campaign on a group like this (cliches that are now so rare that they are anything but).
"You're all working for a lord of paladins, there's an evil knight who's holding a damsel hostage in a tower. She needs to be rescued. Shoo!"
I remember an entry for someone looking for a DM on Roll20. Her requirements were
1 - It had to be an entirely original campaign. No published materials.
2 - It had to be written around her character and backstory.
3 - You had to allow her to use whatever homebrew she wanted to use. No specifics.
4 - Must use safety tools
5 - It had to have a soundtrack.
Of course, she wanted someone to do all this for free. Oddly, she didn't seem to have any takers.
Edit - I just checked and she is still looking.
Quote from: yosemitemike on March 28, 2024, 09:32:02 AMSome players don't make backgrounds like this because there's a certain sort of GM that will punish them for it. They will immediately kill off the family or have them kidnapped or something.
That's my cue as a player to go John Wick or Ellie/Abby in
The Last of Us and torture and murder everyone in my way until I avenge or rescue them. Like that lunatic in
Sicario. Once I start murdering and torturing everyone I meet the GM gets the message and doesn't do that again.
You'll find that the sort of GM who does this doesn't have the bottle to have your character arrested or sniped from 500 yards or whatever, so you can just hack your way through to a satisfying conclusion. The GM chooses an adversarial approach? Cool, I can be adversarial.
Source: I had a GM do that once. He learned.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 31, 2024, 08:47:16 AM
Quote from: Hzilong on March 31, 2024, 07:42:48 AM
Well, for better or worse, I've agreed to run a game for three of the people who were present at the call. I don't recall if they were the annoying ones. I'll see if they behave different in a longer game compared to a one shot.
Thinking positively, maybe you'll be able to convince them to play a little better. But thinking realistically. They're going to be surrounded by people who play like them and only you who plays like you do. Peer influence is a heck of a thing. I wish you good luck, and if all goes well, get them into other games. I always recommend Savage World Pathfinder for DnD cultists as it has a lot of the DnD trappings and terminology converted to Savage World. Making it way easier to explain to people who are only familiar with DnD.
Funny you mention Svage worlds because there is a high likelihood that it will be system I run with for this group.
Quote from: yosemitemike on April 01, 2024, 01:24:13 AM
I remember an entry for someone looking for a DM on Roll20. Her requirements were
1 - It had to be an entirely original campaign. No published materials.
2 - It had to be written around her character and backstory.
3 - You had to allow her to use whatever homebrew she wanted to use. No specifics.
4 - Must use safety tools
5 - It had to have a soundtrack.
Of course, she wanted someone to do all this for free. Oddly, she didn't seem to have any takers.
Edit - I just checked and she is still looking.
Well that read like: " >:( Service Me, slave!"
;D Yeah, that's some crazy expectations, like the GM is a CPU or automaton to cater to whims without consideration. :) It's almost like a sociable game requires being sociable. :o Heresy, I know! ::)
Quote from: yosemitemike on April 01, 2024, 01:24:13 AM
I remember an entry for someone looking for a DM on Roll20. Her requirements were
1 - It had to be an entirely original campaign. No published materials.
2 - It had to be written around her character and backstory.
3 - You had to allow her to use whatever homebrew she wanted to use. No specifics.
4 - Must use safety tools
5 - It had to have a soundtrack.
Of course, she wanted someone to do all this for free. Oddly, she didn't seem to have any takers.
Edit - I just checked and she is still looking.
[Snort]......thats funny, she must be a hoot to play rpgs with.....
Quote from: yosemitemike on April 01, 2024, 01:24:13 AM
I remember an entry for someone looking for a DM on Roll20. Her requirements were
1 - It had to be an entirely original campaign. No published materials.
2 - It had to be written around her character and backstory.
3 - You had to allow her to use whatever homebrew she wanted to use. No specifics.
4 - Must use safety tools
5 - It had to have a soundtrack.
Of course, she wanted someone to do all this for free. Oddly, she didn't seem to have any takers.
Edit - I just checked and she is still looking.
I'm usually against any kind of bait-and-switch by the GM when it comes to pitch versus how it is envisioned playing out. Virulently against. However, if a GM wanted to completely waste some time and go for the ultimate bait-and-switch on this one, I wouldn't say a word against it. :P
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 01, 2024, 01:27:11 PM
I'm usually against any kind of bait-and-switch by the GM when it comes to pitch versus how it is envisioned playing out. Virulently against. However, if a GM wanted to completely waste some time and go for the ultimate bait-and-switch on this one, I wouldn't say a word against it. :P
If I had more free time, I would probably enjoy fucking with her. People like this are what give gamers a bad name.
Quote from: Brad on April 01, 2024, 02:07:12 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 01, 2024, 01:27:11 PM
I'm usually against any kind of bait-and-switch by the GM when it comes to pitch versus how it is envisioned playing out. Virulently against. However, if a GM wanted to completely waste some time and go for the ultimate bait-and-switch on this one, I wouldn't say a word against it. :P
If I had more free time, I would probably enjoy fucking with her. People like this are what give gamers a bad name.
Seems like the sort of game where the GM abuses the safety card system:
"I try to seduce the orc and get him to leave his evil warlord and serve me."
"Sorry, I can't."
"Why?"
"My parents separated over a woman who managed to convince my dad to leave my mom."
"Uh... okay. Well, can I bribe the orc then?"
"Sorry. X card."
"Why?!?!"
"I... I don't want to talk about it anymore."
"Well, can you at least stop playing Cab Calloway songs when I explore the dungeon?"
"That's my emotional support music, and I think it's -very- appropriate for dungeon crawling."
"How?!?!"
(GM pushes X card towards her.)
LMAO, flipping the X still makes it an X. So, using it against the players is fair. Real world politics X, woke agendas X, wheelchairs X, coffee shops... I'll have to think about, back in the 1650's they were the focal point for news, politics, social commentary, and even the exchange of scientific ideas. That might be fun in a non-Starbucks kind of way and an alternative to 'you meet in a tavern'.
I had another player who left in the middle of a 4 hour one-shot based on 80s slasher movies because I wasn't incorporating her backstory enough. That she wrote a 3 page backstory for a character for a one-shot based on 80s slasher movies should have been a warning.
Just make them play DCC. Roll up 4 0-level peasants and go!
QuoteI had another player who left in the middle of a 4 hour one-shot based on 80s slasher movies because I wasn't incorporating her backstory enough. That she wrote a 3 page backstory for a character for a one-shot based on 80s slasher movies should have been a warning.
(Dunno why quoting doesn't work for me right now, but anyhoo.)
Three page backstory for a one-shot 80s slasher movie is cuckoo bananas. I don't know if I could have held my tongue and asked, "Name me one 80s slasher movie teen victim or final girl that has a 3-page backstory -- and repeat it back to us for the edification of the table." >:( Seriously, this is roleplaying not bluebook simming and fanfic, go to the correct hobby.