Quote from: GnomeWorks;318222Oh? Why's that?

Because it is proper to space twice after sentences.  The single-space rule was invented by newspapers to save space in their columns.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;318221Tyranny of Fun? Well, it's not hardcoded in the rules, so I'd have to say no.

Lame ass 4th-wall-breaking DMing?

Hmm.  Since it's not built into the rules, I guess you could say it's more de facto tyranny.

Quote from: obryn;318152Also, there have been whiny players in every edition.

Isn't that what RPGA was founded upon?  People who want fake challenges within narrow parameters with guaranteed rewards.

I've only glanced at 4e but don't the minion rules just formalize something that most DMs eventually figure out anyway?  You don't track hp of the small fry.  (With the definition of small fry varying with level.)  4e states it so that new DMs start that way.  

 D&D and most games occasionally uses hordes of low level monsters - militia, rats, skeletons, untrained gang members, etc. I remember a thread from a few years ago before 4e was out (CM or Nutkinland?) discussing techniques for mooks and similar large masses of opponents.  No one kept detailed hp records.  Some people either had them fail all saves or used a base save number without bothering to calculate save bonuses.  

In way, this leads to better simulaion.  Something that highly detailed games fail to cover is that a critical part of combat is the quickness with which things can happen.  If it takes an hour to resolve 30 seconds of action, players lose the feel for combat.  Things that speed up play and minimalize bookkeeping keep the action flowing.

I guess my group is a bunch of sandy vaginas then, because they went through the whining of wasting encounter and daily powers on minions when we first started.  We use MapTool, so minion tokens now don't have a health bar to be easily identified.  So, going into every combat all the player immediately know which token is a minion or not.  Personally, I don't like it but I'd rather not deal with the sandy shit storm that would spew forth from their leaky vaginas if I went back to hiding minions.

Quote from: Nicephorus;318357Isn't that what RPGA was founded upon?  People who want fake challenges within narrow parameters with guaranteed rewards.

I indeed believe the RPGA is a BIG part of the problem, since 1e AD&D actually.

Quote from: Hairfoot;318283We've gone over this in other threads.  I've got nothing against god modes, per se.  It's just that I enjoy them in FPSs rather than RPGs, where I like to be challenged and invest some intelligence in the game, rather than take glee in being an all-powerful conqueror that the game world revolves around.
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The fact that you cannot recognize that there is no correlation between using minions in play and playing in god-mode is mind-boggling.

Quote from: jibbajibba;318293I don't think the problem is with 'the kolbolds in tatty armour with spears' or the 'city guard armed with pikes' a 10th level D&D character could always plow through those and let's be honest tracking a goblin that had 5 hp and was hit for 3 is a bit tedious in a toe to toe fight where there are 50 goblins. The problem is with the Orge Blugeoner who in theory should have 234 HP but now has 1...

Or maybe, the minions are the "normal" ogres and the ones touting 234 HP are the heroes of thier race.

Quote from: Benoist;318377I indeed believe the RPGA is a BIG part of the problem, since 1e AD&D actually.

Yea, verily.  The RPGA is of the devil.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;318382The fact that you cannot recognize that there is no correlation between using minions in play and playing in god-mode is mind-boggling.

The fact that you deliberately ignore the connection is equally confusing.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;318383Or maybe, the minions are the "normal" ogres and the ones touting 234 HP are the heroes of thier race.

Or maybe the minions are missing a third dimension, namely 'hit points', and like a Platonic solid, having only two dimensions does not make it a cube.  At best, they are scenery; at worst, a further waste of game time.

I hear them touted as an ease on the bookkeeping, but for even a minimally organized DM, keeping track of hit points in addition to a minion's position, powers, marking, damage, movement, attacks, saves, and a pile of other combat parameters shouldn't be a game breaking additional burden.  In fact, as I review the posts about the evolution of D&D, what I seem to hear most is that combats have taken progressively longer with each new edition.

Perhaps, then, the problem isn't going to be solved by giving them one pseudo-hit point, but rather in not giving an excuse to throw a dozen or  more additional opponents into a melee that has already become bogged down under its own 'tactical options' and 'balance uber alles' in the name of warm fuzzies for the players.

In the modern editions of D&D, there's no such thing as metagaming, any more than there's metagaming in chess or Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Today's D&D is simply a tactical boardgame with a thicker layer of thematic gloss tham most. So of course players will be angry if the DM hides the identity of minions from them. How are you supposed to maximise your tactical efficiency if the DM keeps important data from you?

There are things that, at any level of a warriors career, can be easily dispatched.  Untrained diplomats and sniveling goblins for 1st level characters, up to demons of insufficient rank for 30th level demigods.  It should be pretty obvious who these folks are, starting at first level, and then later in your career it should be entirely obvious because you have years of adventuring and enemy judging under your belt.  I find the inclusion and identification of minions to be more realistic, frankly.

Plus it opens up great options like using a bluff check to pretend to be a minion.

And of course, like so many parts of 4e, like magic items and skill challenges, it can be ignored without having any effect on the rest of the system.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;318219If your characters couldn't know, you can't know. If your characters can figure it out in-game, so can you. Aren't we roleplaying?

It seems that, no, modern D&D doesn't involve roleplaying in the traditional sense.

Quote from: Haffrung;318423It seems that, no, modern D&D doesn't involve roleplaying in the traditional sense.

My many sessions of 4e run without any combat at all say you can shove this stupid argument.

Quote from: StormBringer;318394Perhaps, then, the problem isn't going to be solved by giving them one pseudo-hit point, but rather in not giving an excuse to throw a dozen or  more additional opponents into a melee that has already become bogged down under its own 'tactical options' and 'balance uber alles' in the name of warm fuzzies for the players.

This. Instead of 20 opponents, 15 of which are minions, how about 5 opponents of slightler tougher fiber?

Quote from: counterspin;318424My many sessions of 4e run without any combat at all say you can shove this stupid argument.

I agree.

I myself have often played checkers with roleplaying included.  :rolleyes:

Well Jeff, when the characters were working together to write a play, what were the players doing then?  There was no dice rolling.  Everyone was in character.  Isn't there a word for that?  Yeah, there is, the word is roleplaying.  Anyone who advances the "4e isn't roleplaying" argument is full of shit.