So I was tooling around with the Mini-Six version of the Open D6 system (derived from the old WEG Star Wars system) and I had this untested idea:

Usually the first step in the 'Wound Level' system is 'Stunned', which imposes a -1 die penalty for a turn but no permanent effect. It got me thinking, what if I offered other, similar penalties the attacker could inflict at that level?

Here's a rough draft, with the 'Stunned' result replaced with a 'Trouble' result:

QuoteThe 'Trouble' Result
If a character receives the 'trouble' result they are undamaged but their opponent can inflict one of these inconveniences on them, or some similar suggestion if the game master approves. Note that not all the inconveniences are possible under all circumstances; obviously you cannot grapple an opponent with a bullet.

Disrupted. The character is confused, dazzled, wrapped up in a nearby curtain, or in some way distracted. They receive a –1 penalty to all actions until the end of their next turn.

Disarmed. The character's weapon (if it isn't a part of their body of course) or some object they are wearing is knocked away from them 2D feet in a direction of the attacker's choice.

Vulnerable. The character's defenses are down or impaired. subtracts 5 from any TN to hit them until the end of the attacker's next turn.

Moved. The character is thrown, pushed, or caused to stumble. They are forced to move 15 feet in a direction of the attacker's choice. If this would cause them to fall off something or move into something dangerous like a fire, they can make an Agility + Acrobatics roll against a TN of 10 to catch themselves right before they do. Otherwise, they suffer the consequences.
 
Grappled. The character is bodily grappled by the attacker in some way. They cannot move away from the attacker the end of their next turn unless they spend an action to make a Might + Athletics roll against the attacker's Block TN. They are free to fight back normally too. The attacker can also pull the character along at half their speed.

Stuck. The character is trapped by something in the scene and can't move until the end of their next turn unless the game master rules they can break whatever is restraining them with a Might + Athletics roll.

What do you think as a GM and a player? Is there some disastrous oversight here? Is it too much for Mini-Six?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;945089Is there some disastrous oversight here? Is it too much for Mini-Six?

Sorry to say that but it feels too much - and it also feels a bit off.

Most of the choices are not something that should happen as a result of a wound level.
Just translate it back to hit points: Would you impose a "disarmed" result if a combatant has lost a quarter of his hp total?

Getting disarmed, pushed back, pinned, trapped, or grappled should be the result of the action of the attacker, i.e. a quality or goal of the attack roll.

Another question:
Is this "Trouble" in addition to other mechanisms to disarm, push back, or grapple, or is this the grapple rule, i.e. if an attacker wants to grapple an opponent (or disarm him) he has to inflict the first wound level.
(What happens when the opponent is already wounded at the first level, and my attack brings him to second level - do I still get to disarm him if this was my declared goal?)

I fear this Trouble rule will result in many, many weaponless combatants...

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;945142Sorry to say that but it feels too much - and it also feels a bit off.

It's ok, I'm not emotionally invested, just experimenting.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;945142Most of the choices are not something that should happen as a result of a wound level.
Just translate it back to hit points: Would you impose a "disarmed" result if a combatant has lost a quarter of his hp total?

My rationale is that the 'Stunned' wound level was already a temporary inconvenience. Should losing a quarter of your HP impose a momentary little penalty and then you're fine and fresh to go? So if that's the case, why not offer other inconveniences?

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;945142Getting disarmed, pushed back, pinned, trapped, or grappled should be the result of the action of the attacker, i.e. a quality or goal of the attack roll.

This is an area of game design I'm frequently dissatisfied with. It's the 'Useless Useful Spell'* problem from TV tropes basically: Either the system makes these condition attacks good enough that the players will spam them all session long, which is boring, or they just aren't good enough to justify not using a normal attack that will quickly and efficiently inflict the best combat condition in the game - "dead".

3rd edition D&D tried to solve this problem by making stuff like trip too difficult for normal people to use, so they never did, or too easy after using feats, so those characters built around the tactic would do nothing else. It was the worst of both worlds.

4th edition D&D basically said a baseline attack should always have a rider effect, so that way the riders would see plenty of play and could be balanced against each other as well as a resource management mechanic [at-will, encounter, daily]. Unfortunately it was slow and kept getting slower with every variation.

5th edition D&D has the battle master fighter who can just add the rider effects a limited number of times per fight without diminishing their damage output. Still very 'gamey' feeling to some though.

I'm always looking for ways to insert rider effects like trip and and disarm into the normal flow of combat.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;945142Another question:
Is this "Trouble" in addition to other mechanisms to disarm, push back, or grapple, or is this the grapple rule, i.e. if an attacker wants to grapple an opponent (or disarm him) he has to inflict the first wound level.

Basically it would take the place of the Open D6 mechanisms, because in my testing I found those to be similar to the 3rd edition mechanisms without the feats: something players will try once, realize it's complicated and failure-prone and not likely to get them to their goal of victory any faster than a normal attack, then never try again.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;945142(What happens when the opponent is already wounded at the first level, and my attack brings him to second level - do I still get to disarm him if this was my declared goal?)

Honestly I'm not sure how it should work. I'd say right now since the 'Stunned' condition wasn't applied to every subsequent wound level in the original rules, Trouble shouldn't either. The player will have to console themselves with merely imposing permanent die penalties on their foe and bringing them closer to actual defeat.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;945142I fear this Trouble rule will result in many, many weaponless combatants...

Yeah, I'm afraid of that too, and I'm not sure what to do. Same problem as always, either no one ever gets disarmed, or everyone is getting disarmed all the time...


* http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UselessUsefulSpell

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;945153Honestly I'm not sure how it should work. I'd say right now since the 'Stunned' condition wasn't applied to every subsequent wound level in the original rules, Trouble shouldn't either. The player will have to console themselves with merely imposing permanent die penalties on their foe and bringing them closer to actual defeat.

That's true but that would lead to the strange case that only "fresh" foes could ever be "troubled" (disarmed, pushed, grappled) which is ... unbelievable.

I once saw the solution to this in a Japanese game (Monster Maker Resurrection?). Any roll was 2d6 + stat or skill vs. difficulty. Any 6 counted as 0 but triggered class-specific effects.
MMR was from 2002. A more recent implementation of a similar rule is the Stunt from Dragon Age.

D6 could adopt a similar rule, with either the MMR method of "6=0 but Trouble" or, if that is too big a chance with pools going up to 6 or 7 dice, just looking at the Wild Die.

Now that I think about it INS/MV (1993) and the SJG remake In Nomine (1997) had a similar thing with the Effect Die.

You're putting the complications in the wrong place.  Instead of making them whenever the player takes damage, make them whenever the player fails a roll or ignores an oncoming threat.  One of the results can then be "takes damage", but it could also be anything else on that list.  Dungeon World does something similar ("GM Moves") and it works really well.

The big difference here is that the complication is a separate thing from the wound track.

I like the idea in concept.

How does Mini-Six currently handle Grapple and Disarm?

Quote from: Dirk Remmeckeif that is too big a chance with pools going up to 6 or 7 dice, just looking at the Wild Die.

Keying it off the Wild Die would be a pretty elegant solution, yes, but for me it has three issues. A) I've encountered a lot of resistance from players to not having enough control over the timing of such abilities. B) I'd probably be running this system online, and the Wild Die is a pain to handle in most online dice rolling setups. C) I don't like the Wild Die or feel it is necessary to the game's math.

Quote from: abcd_zDungeon World does something similar ("GM Moves") and it works really well.

I only know Dungeon World by reputation. Are these "GM moves" available to players too?

Quote from: Spinachcat;945194How does Mini-Six currently handle Grapple and Disarm?

Not at all. It's a micro-system, so the GM is assumed to be improvising OSR style or bolting on whatever subsystems they need. The more expansive Open D6 system works a lot like 3e: make your attack more likely to fail or blow up in your face in exchange for imposing a condition.

After contemplating this thread, I'm wondering if I should instead handle the trouble conditions through a new a rule for spending Hero Points (which are easily awarded throughout sessions for good RP within the specific game's genre). Basically you could enhance any attack with a condition rider by spending a HP. That would sort of make it like 5e's D&D battle master archetype, except the Hero Points are a precious commodity in situations outside of combat as well. Hmm.

Please give me an example of how Grapple or Disarm would work in Mini-D6 (improvised style) vs. Open D6.

I was never been a fan of the Stunned condition in SWD6 because its' really the Lose Your Turn condition so your idea may be useful in play.

Quote from: Spinachcat;945217Please give me an example of how Grapple or Disarm would work in Mini-D6 (improvised style) vs. Open D6.

1) At this link you'll find the free Open D6 Adventure pdf as a link at the bottom. Page 68 is what you're looking for, as it details the 'grab' maneuver and the penalties in a sidebar.
http://opend6.wikidot.com/d6-adventure

2) If I wasn't trying to work out a better system right now, I'd be inclined to use 5th Edition D&D's grapple rules in Mini-Six, which would be trivial to bolt on. They are described at this link, in the 'Making an Attack' tab.
http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

Quote from: Spinachcat;945217I was never been a fan of the Stunned condition in SWD6 because its' really the Lose Your Turn condition so your idea may be useful in play.

The Stunned level on the mini-six wound chart is only -1D, not a turn loss.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;945215I only know Dungeon World by reputation. Are these "GM moves" available to players too?

No; GM moves are different from player moves.  

I honestly wouldn't try copying Dungeon World directly because it does things differently enough from the approach you're taking that it would require more homebrewing than it's worth.  I just meant that the underlying concept is useful: a failed combat roll can cause a condition, one of which is "take damage".