Quote from: GnomeWorks;321863Wouldn't having rules for contacts and such just make it into another "number" that everyone tries to keep improving?

I suppose it would depend on how it was handled. In the last game I was in, one of the players was very interested in recruiting NPCs as crew for his ship, and I wouldn't say it was a "just a numbers" thing. But then there was no direct system for all of this. Likewise, my character ended up running a brothel that had a similar tendency for acquiring employees and clients.

But it does strike me as odd that the only win/loss conditions in the rules nowadays are level or die. Some old school games expanded loss conditions with things like level loss, sanity rules, and limb loss (the latter two in BRP games, but I think it was a good idea). I think a few might've gone for expanded win conditions (I'm sure in Traveller at least your wealth was significant and distinct from character power, right? otherwise I'm maybe not the best person to comment on this) but even if they didn't, I think it would be a good idea for similar reasons. Or if it's not in the rules how a person might "win" outside of leveling, it should at least be included in the GMs advice.

The last time I tried to play D&D 3.x a few years ago, the DM of the group told me to make up a 5th level PC at home using a complex build point system. I made up a cleric of Odin who was an explorer and seeker of ancient knowledge. I chose all of his stats, skills, and feats with that concept in mind. Then I chose some magic items that sounded cool.

Turns out my PC was way underpowered from what these guys expected. He was a liability in their combat-heavy game, who didn't have the juice they expected from a cleric in their group. I ended up not playing again.

Now, these guys were mini-maxing powergamers. But they weren't asshats. It simply hadn't occurred to them to play 3.x as anything other than an analytical system-mastery game. And they were all happy playing that way together. I was the oddball.

I think there are a lot of better games out there if you want to exercise only the number-crunching analytical part of your mind. But if you want to play D&D to scratch that itch, all the power to you.

Quote from: Simlasa;321888I'd expect it would... which is part of why I don't see any need for specific rules regarding those aspects of the game. I'd rather that stuff happen organically... relationships formed between the PCs and NPCs rather than 'you did X many tasks for Y therefore your Y-rep stat has increased to Z.'

Simlasa, I play Vampire LARP every once in a while. It has a point buy contact system. You have to RP a little to justify your purchases, but spending experiance boosting contacts is a great way to build a character. Some people build powerful characters, and other people build helpful characters that have powerful friends.

I think having a stat for contacts in some way helps the game because it gives you a concrete understanding of what you can expect to be able to accomplish. There isn't a constant what if feeling with GM fiat totally determining what your friends can do. It is a part of the rules.

Not to mention, for some reason, it makes the game feel deeper. It shouldn't, because it is an extra stat, but it really helps.

Quote from: jibbajibba;321864The old WoD rules have all their rules for fame, wealth, contacts etc

That's not limited to the oWoD, either. In the current Storytelling System, "Contacts" and "Fame" and "Resources" are all Social Merits, purchased dot by dot with XP.

Quote from: Cranewings;322122I think having a stat for contacts in some way helps the game because it gives you a concrete understanding of what you can expect to be able to accomplish. There isn't a constant what if feeling with GM fiat totally determining what your friends can do. It is a part of the rules.

Sounds like it works for you but it's not my taste... I like the 'what if' feeling... I like being left to wonder just how friendly an NPC really is toward me... rather than looking at some stat and KNOWING that he likes me.

Quote from: Simlasa;322226Sounds like it works for you but it's not my taste... I like the 'what if' feeling... I like being left to wonder just how friendly an NPC really is toward me... rather than looking at some stat and KNOWING that he likes me.

Well, the main reason someone wouldn't be friendly to you is because there is a competing interest. If I have police 3, I might expect not to get arrested... but if someone else with police 3 has it out for me, my contacts might be pressured not to be sympathetic, "sorry, I can't help you this time."

You cant' know if someone is using contacts against you, unless that is what you are using your contacts for!

I'm not sure what your getting at there Crane... are you saying that even with numerical ratings there is still uncertainty? I'm sure that's possible... just don't see any great advantage to quantifying that stuff when it can so easily (and interestingly) roleplayed out.
I've got no issues with GM fiat as long as the GM isn't a complete ass... and if he is a complete ass... well, I'm not playing in that game anyway.

Quote from: Simlasa;322238I'm not sure what your getting at there Crane...

Just because you have a stat regarding your contact doesn't mean you know how it will play out, sense you have enemies and rivals with similar attributes. Its like saying you know you will win a wrestling match because you have a strength score... the other guy has one too.