TheRPGSite

I intend this thread to be a place to drop whatever medieval occult or folkloric information people come across that could potentially be useful to people's games.

So in the Baopuzi I came across an external alchemy recipe for Ninefold Radiance Elixir. The recipe results in portions with a total 25 color variants(?) with various effects. Some are given:

• The blue one raises the dead, provided they have only been dead for 3 or less days
• The yellow one makes you invisible among other things
• The black one has some manner of conjuration effect

Such an item could be cool as a high level Chinese external alchemy preparation or as a magic item, depending on how you feel about limited raise dead capabilities in a Medieval Authentic game.

Also I have seen a Shaivite Immobilization Tantra which roots foes to the spot with creeping vines, roots, or other plant limbs. In this the user would put white Abrus Precatorious seeds in a human skull cup filled with soil, then pour milk over it while chanting mantras.

For European stuff, the area in the Alps around Tyrol seems to have quite a bit of interesting folklore: A nymph in a lake Karersee, Orks (local mountain daemons), forests full of giants and woodwoses, dragons, and according to High Medieval Chivalric Romances/Poems about Dietrich von Bern at least 3-4 Dwarven kingdoms under various mountains more civilized than the typical L&D dwarves of medieval folklore. These dwarf holds are usually depicted as pagan (with the exception of the one in Virginal which is apparently Christian) and allied with the giants. In an early version of one of the stories, the dwarf hold of King Laurin is more or less wiped out by Dietrich von Bern and his 3 companions (including also Witege, half-elf son of Weyland the Smith) in the days of Attila the Hun. What's become of it could be an interesting adventure location.

All very cool stuff!

One of the things that makes me sad is so much of fantasy RPG material just ignores folklore that doesn't produce monsters or provide power.  Here's a few of my favorites.  (I am not an academic in the field, it's just stuff I picked up while reading over the years.  If I get it wrong, sorry.)

Brownies:  Brownies are a type of elf creature usually described as small people between 6" and 24" tall with mischievous personalities and some magical abilities.  They come from Germanic folklore and are common throughout western Europe, including Germany, France, and the British Isles.  Depending on local variants, they can be pranksters that can be bribed with treats or wooden buttons to behave.  In other places, they can be a source of minor but continuous misfortune such as minor illness, milk cows going dry, or tools breaking. 

Takuni:  This is a real creature from Japan that looks a bit like a raccoon and is known for getting into trash and chicken coops.  They are generally seen as petty thieves and mess makers.  According to some folklore, they are capable of some minor magical feats such as shape shifting, illusions, and mild mental manipulation.  One of my favorite stories was a takuni that turned into a person and bought some treats with rocks he used an illusion on to make them look like coins.

Water:  Many cultures have looked at water as having magical or spiritual properties.  Frequently, bodies of water are seen as being gateways between our world and other planes or worlds.  Celtic, Germanic, and Norse folklore had very strong beliefs and taboos associated with water and magic, believing that it could be very powerful but also extremely dangerous as it could connect to malevolent creatures beyond our world. 

Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 11:25:10 AM
One of the things that makes me sad is so much of fantasy RPG material just ignores folklore that doesn't produce monsters or provide power.  Here's a few of my favorites.  (I am not an academic in the field, it's just stuff I picked up while reading over the years.  If I get it wrong, sorry.)

My last three adventures have prominently been about huaca or sacred places in Incan belief. These are usually marked by an unusual landmark, and that spot is a very minor deity. So, for example, these were the three huacas in the capital city.

QuoteThe Puma's Head - site of the Upper Temple of Inti and the fortress citadel

• This sacred site is known for rare displays of great power. Pachakuti built a magical fortress around it, including a flying citadel that rises above it.
• In the temple and citadel, all spell ranges and durations are doubled, and arcana or other magical research rolls have advantage.

The Puma's Heart - site of the Lower Temple of Inti

• This sacred site is known for enlightenment and healing for people of the empire who come to pray here. The Heart gives strength and aids in divination.
• On temple grounds, any spells for healing or divination can be cast at 1 level higher than the slot used. Further, all strength rolls are at advantage (including saves and attacks).

The Puma's Belly - site of the national square and temple of Viracocha

• This sacred site is known for omens and visions, seen as rising from the damp and now sandy ground. The square is the economic and diplomatic center of the empire, through which massive trade and diplomatic delegations pass.
• In the square and temple, any spells of earth or water can be cast at 2 levels higher than the slot used. All wisdom rolls are at advantage (including saves and spells).

Encountering the huacas was a major point in each of the adventures.

Still in a Chinese mood, so have some selected creatures for a Chinese bestiary:

The Bashe (巴蛇) is a giant constrictor snake which preys upon elephants. It will disgorge the bones after 3 years time and its flesh can be eaten to prevent heart and stomach diseases. It presumably originates in a land to the southwest of China.

The Egui (餓鬼) is the Chinese Hungry Ghost equivalent to the Preta or Gaki.

The Yecha (夜叉) is a Yakshasa, but in China (Yasha in Japan).  8) The males are often portrayed as more stout and ugly, while the females are of more human height and beautiful.

The Pixiu (貔貅), called Tao Ba in the Han Dynasty, is a fierce auspicious creature which lives off a diet of precious metals and stones and is therefore associated with wealth and warding off evil. The male has one horn and is called Tianlu; the female has two horns and is called Bixie. They have draconic heads, lion-like bodies and wings. Often depicted in guardian statues.

The Xiezhi (獬豸) is an intelligent and righteous one-horned beast like a mix of a lion and some sort of ungulate. It is a symbol of Chinese law and was said to ram wrongful parties in disputes or fights. Some say it devours the corrupt and understands human speech.  There is also a Han dynasty source mentioning the emperor and his court hunting them bizarrely enough.

The Paoxiao (狍鴞) is a man-eating monster in the northern mountains (Mount Gouwu?). It has a goat-like body, feet like clawed human hands and a human-like face with sharp teeth but without eyes. It's eyes are on its flanks and its cry sounds like that of a human child presumably to lure prey.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/f0789cb01889540442521dcdc31a715a/cf0ae2c6a5c11eef-55/s1280x1920/64616aa7704c8dbe351b5c3f647817922eb9ec88.jpg)

The Taotie (饕餮) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with gluttony. It is associated with the designs found on Shang and Zhou bronzeware, particularly cauldrons. According to Lu Buwei in the Warring States period Taotie is only a head which eats people, without a body it cannot swallow, but it harms them nonetheless.

The Taowu (檮杌) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with ignorance. It appears as a beast with tiger-like claws, a human-like face with the tusks of a boar, and a long tail. It is said to live in the western wilds of China (a strange encounter off the Silk Road?). It is vicious, stubborn and utterly untamable. One account says it can divine the future, it may use this ability to lead men astray.

The Qiongqi (窮奇) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with underhandedness. It appears like a fusion of an ox and a tiger with wings, another account makes it's fur akin to sharp quills. Its cry sounds like the howl of a dog. It is a man-eating beast which especially devours the righteous and those who wear long untied hair. If it encounters a wicked man it will share the prey it has caught with him. It is intelligent and understands the human tongue. It dwells in the mountains of the north and west, for example the Shaanxi region. In the Han dynasty it was invoked in theurgy against Gu sorcery.

The Hundun (渾敦/渾沌) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with chaos. Its appearance is quite peculiar, having no eyes or ears, nor an apparent mouth or nose though there are accounts of it eating. Its body is red like cinnabar.  It doesn't know right from wrong and may well attack the righteous and serve the wicked. In the Shanhaijing it is said to be the god Dijiang and dwell in the west on Mt. Tianshan (those mountains extend to not too far from Samarkand) where it sings and dances.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Hundun.JPG/220px-Hundun.JPG)

The Aoyin (傲因) is a man-eating beast said to dwell in the Three Dangers Mountains to the west, these are often identified with the mountains near Dunhuang where the Mogao caves are. It resembles an ox but with long white fur, four horns, and sharp teeth. This name is also used in the Shenyijing to describe a creature  in the desolate west which seems to be synonymous with a ghul.

The Xieju or Geju/Heju (猲狙) a wolf-like man-eating monster from the eastern mountains. It has a reddish head and rat-like beady eyes. Its cry sounds like a boar.

The Bai Ze (白泽) a wise beast of Chinese mythology which allegedly gave a book to the Yellow Emperor containing knowledge of all supernatural beings and the spells to counter them. It is capable of speech. It resembles an ox-lion hybrid with a dragon-like face. It has nine eyes, 3 on it's face and three on each flank. It also has six horns.
(https://www.rosemarybandini.com/wp-content/uploads/bfi_thumb/05-Hakutaku-nosxewagf8089jcr74of30xs24clyztc1rn864elfk.jpg)

The Yanlu* (炎顱?) is a monster which dwells in the western mountains. It is only active one day every six months when it comes down from the mountain to hunt (usually people and livestock); the rest of the year it hibernates. When it is awake its fur hardens making it invulnerable to normal weapons.

The Shanxiao (山魈) is a mountain sprite which resembles a wild man or ape man. In most depictions it has only one, often backwards-facing, leg and in some only one eye and/or two small horns. They are said to catch and live off of freshwater crustaceans and frogs. It is said that they may attack a person at night, drown people in mountain streams, steal from humans or throw stones. Some people worship them as mountain gods and may be rewarded with wealth. In Fujian, Zhejiang and She it is said the Shanxiao may possess red caps of Invisibility (not unlike western faeries). Many accounts say they can be driven off with the sound of popping bamboo in a fire or firecrackers.

The Xingxing (猩猩), Jueyuan (玃猿), or Feifei (狒狒) are a race of wild ape men which live in the mountains. Their blood may be used as a purple dye or drank to imbue the ability to see invisible spirits. They were often said to attack people, steal things (especially alcohol of which they are fond), and carry off human women as mates; the females sometimes would similarly capture human men. They are able to use human speech to a limited extent. They have been associated with the mountains of Shaanxi, ancient Shu's southwestern mountains, Shennongjia in Hebei, Fengxi, and likely other regions.

There are countless others like the 火鼠 fire rat, tiangou, xiao bird, Chimei, Wang Liang, various animal spirits/xian (like foxes and snakes of course), various ghost types, feng/ tai sui, the well-known Qilin, langgui 狼鬼, Guhuo Bird 姑獲鳥, etc.
There are also strange human variants like dog heads or the southern Luotou people whose heads detach at night like the Japanese Nukekubi. These are said to live from Lingnan to parts of Vietnam and Laos.

Many creatures in Chinese folklore tend to have medicinal or magical uses I've found. The fire rats' hide may be used to make fire resistant garb for example. The fire rat is apparently recorded in Persian sources as well

The Shanhaijing and other books overflow with good stuff.

*The yanlu is something in my notes for which I can no longer find a source. Though I swore I found an excerpt of a Chinese classic mentioning it now I find only Taiwanese CRPG and medical articles. I don't remember what form it took in my reading, but in the CRPG's it resembles a three headed wolf-like monster.

Oops. Accidental post please remove

Quote from: WERDNA on December 18, 2023, 03:05:40 AM
Still in a Chinese mood, so have some selected creatures for a Chinese bestiary:

The Bashe (巴蛇) is a giant constrictor snake which preys upon elephants. It will disgorge the bones after 3 years time and its flesh can be eaten to prevent heart and stomach diseases. It presumably originates in a land to the southwest of China.

The Egui (餓鬼) is the Chinese Hungry Ghost equivalent to the Preta or Gaki.

The Yecha (夜叉) is a Yakshasa, but in China (Yasha in Japan).  8) The males are often portrayed as more stout and ugly, while the females are of more human height and beautiful.

The Pixiu (貔貅), called Tao Ba in the Han Dynasty, is a fierce auspicious creature which lives off a diet of precious metals and stones and is therefore associated with wealth and warding off evil. The male has one horn and is called Tianlu; the female has two horns and is called Bixie. They have draconic heads, lion-like bodies and wings. Often depicted in guardian statues.

The Xiezhi (獬豸) is an intelligent and righteous one-horned beast like a mix of a lion and some sort of ungulate. It is a symbol of Chinese law and was said to ram wrongful parties in disputes or fights. Some say it devours the corrupt and understands human speech.  There is also a Han dynasty source mentioning the emperor and his court hunting them bizarrely enough.

The Paoxiao (狍鴞) is a man-eating monster in the northern mountains (Mount Gouwu?). It has a goat-like body, feet like clawed human hands and a human-like face with sharp teeth but without eyes. It's eyes are on its flanks and its cry sounds like that of a human child presumably to lure prey.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/f0789cb01889540442521dcdc31a715a/cf0ae2c6a5c11eef-55/s1280x1920/64616aa7704c8dbe351b5c3f647817922eb9ec88.jpg)

The Taotie (饕餮) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with gluttony. It is associated with the designs found on Shang and Zhou bronzeware, particularly cauldrons. According to Lu Buwei in the Warring States period Taotie is only a head which eats people, without a body it cannot swallow, but it harms them nonetheless.

The Taowu (檮杌) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with ignorance. It appears as a beast with tiger-like claws, a human-like face with the tusks of a boar, and a long tail. It is said to live in the western wilds of China (a strange encounter off the Silk Road?). It is vicious, stubborn and utterly untamable. One account says it can divine the future, it may use this ability to lead men astray.

The Qiongqi (窮奇) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with underhandedness. It appears like a fusion of an ox and a tiger with wings, another account makes it's fur akin to sharp quills. Its cry sounds like the howl of a dog. It is a man-eating beast which especially devours the righteous and those who wear long untied hair. If it encounters a wicked man it will share the prey it has caught with him. It is intelligent and understands the human tongue. It dwells in the mountains of the north and west, for example the Shaanxi region. In the Han dynasty it was invoked in theurgy against Gu sorcery.

The Hundun (渾敦/渾沌) is one of the four evil creatures in Chinese mythology associated with chaos. Its appearance is quite peculiar, having no eyes or ears, nor an apparent mouth or nose though there are accounts of it eating. Its body is red like cinnabar.  It doesn't know right from wrong and may well attack the righteous and serve the wicked. In the Shanhaijing it is said to be the god Dijiang and dwell in the west on Mt. Tianshan (those mountains extend to not too far from Samarkand) where it sings and dances.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Hundun.JPG/220px-Hundun.JPG)

The Aoyin (傲因) is a man-eating beast said to dwell in the Three Dangers Mountains to the west, these are often identified with the mountains near Dunhuang where the Mogao caves are. It resembles an ox but with long white fur, four horns, and sharp teeth. This name is also used in the Shenyijing to describe a creature  in the desolate west which seems to be synonymous with a ghul.

The Xieju or Geju/Heju (猲狙) a wolf-like man-eating monster from the eastern mountains. It has a reddish head and rat-like beady eyes. Its cry sounds like a boar.

The Bai Ze (白泽) a wise beast of Chinese mythology which allegedly gave a book to the Yellow Emperor containing knowledge of all supernatural beings and the spells to counter them. It is capable of speech. It resembles an ox-lion hybrid with a dragon-like face. It has nine eyes, 3 on it's face and three on each flank. It also has six horns.
(https://www.rosemarybandini.com/wp-content/uploads/bfi_thumb/05-Hakutaku-nosxewagf8089jcr74of30xs24clyztc1rn864elfk.jpg)

The Yanlu* (炎顱?) is a monster which dwells in the western mountains. It is only active one day every six months when it comes down from the mountain to hunt (usually people and livestock); the rest of the year it hibernates. When it is awake its fur hardens making it invulnerable to normal weapons.

The Shanxiao (山魈) is a mountain sprite which resembles a wild man or ape man. In most depictions it has only one, often backwards-facing, leg and in some only one eye and/or two small horns. They are said to catch and live off of freshwater crustaceans and frogs. It is said that they may attack a person at night, drown people in mountain streams, steal from humans or throw stones. Some people worship them as mountain gods and may be rewarded with wealth. In Fujian, Zhejiang and She it is said the Shanxiao may possess red caps of Invisibility (not unlike western faeries). Many accounts say they can be driven off with the sound of popping bamboo in a fire or firecrackers.

The Xingxing (猩猩), Jueyuan (玃猿), or Feifei (狒狒) are a race of wild ape men which live in the mountains. Their blood may be used as a purple dye or drank to imbue the ability to see invisible spirits. They were often said to attack people, steal things (especially alcohol of which they are fond), and carry off human women as mates; the females sometimes would similarly capture human men. They are able to use human speech to a limited extent. They have been associated with the mountains of Shaanxi, ancient Shu's southwestern mountains, Shennongjia in Hebei, Fengxi, and likely other regions.

There are countless others like the 火鼠 fire rat, tiangou, xiao bird, Chimei, Wang Liang, various animal spirits/xian (like foxes and snakes of course), various ghost types, feng/ tai sui, the well-known Qilin, langgui 狼鬼, Guhuo Bird 姑獲鳥, etc.
There are also strange human variants like dog heads or the southern Luotou people whose heads detach at night like the Japanese Nukekubi. These are said to live from Lingnan to parts of Vietnam and Laos.

Many creatures in Chinese folklore tend to have medicinal or magical uses I've found. The fire rats' hide may be used to make fire resistant garb for example. The fire rat is apparently recorded in Persian sources as well

The Shanhaijing and other books overflow with good stuff.

*The yanlu is something in my notes for which I can no longer find a source. Though I swore I found an excerpt of a Chinese classic mentioning it now I find only Taiwanese CRPG and medical articles. I don't remember what form it took in my reading, but in the CRPG's it resembles a three headed wolf-like monster.

Some of my Pundit Files issues were going to feature these monsters.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 19, 2023, 01:10:56 AM
Some of my Pundit Files issues were going to feature these monsters.

Exciting to hear. I'm sure you'll do better than Oriental Adventures did with them (not that I blame them, research would've been harder back then). ...Wait, why past tense?

Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 11:25:10 AM
Takuni:  This is a real creature from Japan that looks a bit like a raccoon and is known for getting into trash and chicken coops.  They are generally seen as petty thieves and mess makers.  According to some folklore, they are capable of some minor magical feats such as shape shifting, illusions, and mild mental manipulation.  One of my favorite stories was a takuni that turned into a person and bought some treats with rocks he used an illusion on to make them look like coins.

They are viewed as being lucky, too. Used like maneki neko to get customers.

Yes, the statues have huge nuts. I have seen a number of tanuki and fortunately the real ones don't have the same problem.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/5e/1a/3a5e1afb839c7e10f82049ff7054e215.jpg)

Quote from: Lynn on December 19, 2023, 01:31:25 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 11:25:10 AM
Takuni:  This is a real creature from Japan that looks a bit like a raccoon and is known for getting into trash and chicken coops.  They are generally seen as petty thieves and mess makers.  According to some folklore, they are capable of some minor magical feats such as shape shifting, illusions, and mild mental manipulation.  One of my favorite stories was a takuni that turned into a person and bought some treats with rocks he used an illusion on to make them look like coins.

They are viewed as being lucky, too. Used like maneki neko to get customers.

Yes, the statues have huge nuts. I have seen a number of tanuki and fortunately the real ones don't have the same problem.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/5e/1a/3a5e1afb839c7e10f82049ff7054e215.jpg)

I did a poor job in relaying the takuni I think.  They have a rep of being lovable rascals that get into mild trouble but generally have good hearts.  There's folk tales of them looking after lost children and helping people find things like lost keys.  I remember a story about a kid that got caught picking a lock and he stated during a confession that the takuni in the area taught him how.

A solid half of Japanese folklore is about real animals and the connection to the supernatural they have.  Foxes, snakes, and monkeys all have tales and beliefs about them.

Quote from: BadApple on December 19, 2023, 07:35:52 AM

Quote from: Lynn on December 19, 2023, 01:31:25 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 17, 2023, 11:25:10 AM
Takuni:  This is a real creature from Japan that looks a bit like a raccoon and is known for getting into trash and chicken coops.  They are generally seen as petty thieves and mess makers.  According to some folklore, they are capable of some minor magical feats such as shape shifting, illusions, and mild mental manipulation.  One of my favorite stories was a takuni that turned into a person and bought some treats with rocks he used an illusion on to make them look like coins.

They are viewed as being lucky, too. Used like maneki neko to get customers.

Yes, the statues have huge nuts. I have seen a number of tanuki and fortunately the real ones don't have the same problem.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/5e/1a/3a5e1afb839c7e10f82049ff7054e215.jpg)

I did a poor job in relaying the takuni I think.  They have a rep of being lovable rascals that get into mild trouble but generally have good hearts.  There's folk tales of them looking after lost children and helping people find things like lost keys.  I remember a story about a kid that got caught picking a lock and he stated during a confession that the takuni in the area taught him how.

A solid half of Japanese folklore is about real animals and the connection to the supernatural they have.  Foxes, snakes, and monkeys all have tales and beliefs about them.

Yes. Some of that is influenced from imported folktales but, you also have significant folklore that fits with native Shinto and the eight million gods. Plus long established localities will have their own folklore.

The werewolf

The modern concept of the werewolf seems to be a creation of Edwardian fiction.  The idea that it is a curse that the sufferer doesn't have any control over is a rather new one.  The idea of a wolf-man bipedal creature is completely a Hollywood creation and was first done by Lon Cheney Jr. for the movie "The Wolf Man" in 1941.

In the Eastern European folklore tradition, a person could use magic to turn into a wolf using an item called a wolf strap.  Usually this was done to get into mischief and not be caught out as a human.  As with many folktale stories involving magic, you could dispel the transformation by speaking the person's real name.  Local traditions vary as to the competency of the person in wolf form; some stories have it where the werewolf was fully human mentally and others where they were still self aware but had their faculties dimmed to the level of a beast until they took human form.

An interesting aspect of the lore is that the wolf strap become part of the person that uses it.  If it is kept in a warm or cold place, the owner will always feel warm or cold.  Some variants hold that damage done to a wolf strap would be imparted to it's owner as well.

It's fascinating to me that so many cultures have some form of lycanthropy in their folklore.  The Hawaiians have sea turtles that that will transform into children and play with other children on the beach.  Eskimos have as a folklore tale that some seals are actually people and that they can take their seal skin off to engage with other people.  The Japanese of course have the takuni and fox shape shifters but they also had as part of their lore that shinobi could transform into wolves.  Some tribes in Africa see baboons as people with transforming abilities.  Australian aborigines have stories about people that shape shift into snakes.

Quote from: WERDNA on December 19, 2023, 01:21:07 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 19, 2023, 01:10:56 AM
Some of my Pundit Files issues were going to feature these monsters.

Exciting to hear. I'm sure you'll do better than Oriental Adventures did with them (not that I blame them, research would've been harder back then). ...Wait, why past tense?

The past tense to mean that it was already planned before you posted this.

Quote from: BadApple on December 19, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
The werewolf

The modern concept of the werewolf seems to be a creation of Edwardian fiction.  The idea that it is a curse that the sufferer doesn't have any control over is a rather new one.  The idea of a wolf-man bipedal creature is completely a Hollywood creation and was first done by Lon Cheney Jr. for the movie "The Wolf Man" in 1941.

In the Eastern European folklore tradition, a person could use magic to turn into a wolf using an item called a wolf strap. 

Well, there is more to it than just that. The Hungarian werewolf lore, the especially the vrylakos, is intertwined in vampire lore, as well as the strigoi (withcraft). The witchcraft version is more of what you are talking about. But lore of that region is full of examples of people who are cursed and turn into wolves; sometimes they hide their nature from their families and ultimately attack them. In other cases, they become corpses during the day and can be put to rest with a stake or nail through the heart. So the modern werewolf is only a little bit based on the medieval European werewolf, more on the Lon Cheney movie, with a nice blend of the Hungarian and Rumanian werewolf/vampire lore. The bipedal werewolf could be considered a version of the loup-garou (or loogaroo), a Caribbean and Mississippi delta monster much like a demon, lamia, or rakshasa, which takes its name from the French name for a werewolf.

For a fantastic take on medieval alchemy, I like the old d20 books by Penumbra. Mongoose's d20 Testament is shockingly good for folkloric Bible magic.

I've done some freelance work for Legendary Games, who have put out a Mediterranean monsters book, plus Boricubos (Caribbean and Latin America) and other global folklore stuff. You have your muki, your demon horse face women, and other cool stuff.

Y'all are quite big-brained when it comes to history and mythology, and mythological history and the like, I shall indeed admit. I guess that kind of comes with medieval TTRPG expertise territory, probably, but still... credit where it is due.

The Odontotyrannos Alexander and his men encountered near India according to Medieval accounts is a worthy adversary for a S&C campaign on the southern silk road.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Thomas-de-Kent-Bnf-fr24364-fol54v-dent_tyrant.jpg)

The Skolex Worms of the Indus River are also worth looking into.

There is a forested region in the Kingdom of Norway (historically, it's part of Sweden now) called Alfheim. Supposedly it is called such because it once ruled by a Norse King called Alf the Old in whose line there was no small amount of Elvish blood. It was said that the local nobility who claimed ties with Alf's ancient line were exceptionally good looking due to their elven descent. Alf would have ruled around the 5th century based on his contemporaries in the sagas (probably), but who ruled the generations before? In a fantastical Europe, it would likely have been the elves. Alfheim in Norway would be a good spot for the hidden ruins of ancient elf colonies dating back to antiquity. These isolated spots of decadent, supernatural civilization far beyond the Limes Germanicus could be interesting in a classical Roman game as well if you're foolhardy enough to travel that far beyond the frontiers.

Alfheim is in present-day Bohuslan.

The Mayan culture has a creature called the Xtabay, which would be somewhat similar to a "siren" of the woods. 

The Xtabay appears in front of drunken or unfaithful men to lure them with her uncanny beauty into the woods to lead them to their death by tripping or hitting their head on the Ceiba tree which is considered a sacred tree connecting heaven, earth and the underworld.

Also, they have something called an "Alux" which is a mischievous small creature that is normally invisible and hides objects to play pranks.

To my surprise, it seems it is very similar to the german "Kobold". Which made me wonder where the D&D kobold as a small reptilian creature came from. Japenese media portray the kobold as basically canine folk.

https://abookofcreatures.com/ cross-references a lot of weird creatures with citations and includes fact checking to fix fakelore. A lot of these creatures are weird, particularly when it comes to things like harvesting their body parts for ingredients.

Fearsome critters are my favorite because they're Americana. D&D owes so much to the Old West, so I think there need to be more overt western influences and fearsome critters. Less Lord of the Rings, more Wizard of Oz. Cowboys fighting orcs and snallygasters. But I suppose that's for a different thread

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 09:23:54 PM
To my surprise, it seems it is very similar to the german "Kobold". Which made me wonder where the D&D kobold as a small reptilian creature came from. Japanese media portray the kobold as basically canine folk.

There are similar creatures in almost every culture, it's quite fascinating. As for the appearance, Bell's kobold art in OD&D was gnome-like as per many folkloric depictions. Sutherland depicted them as scaly devil-dog things based on his interpretation of Gary's write up in the AD&D monster manual. WOTC went further and made them reptile guys distantly related to dragons for some reason. Japanese art has them as dogmen because the version of D&D first released in Japan was the Basic set with the very canine Erol Otus art, then Lodoss War and the Japanese ports of Wizardry ran with that direction.

Speaking of dogmen...
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/b480c2d8-3cf7-47c1-9ea1-7b7f6f25d392/de6xher-5b0c405b-8ee4-45b7-a824-537d24c642da.jpg/v1/fill/w_746,h_1071,q_70,strp/31_monsters_challenge__psoglav_by_loneanimator_de6xher-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9MTgzNyIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2I0ODBjMmQ4LTNjZjctNDdjMS05ZWExLTdiN2Y2ZjI1ZDM5MlwvZGU2eGhlci01YjBjNDA1Yi04ZWU0LTQ1YjctYTgyNC01MzdkMjRjNjQyZGEuanBnIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTEyODAifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlcnZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.-zZxh_3q7U5wkvWHo3emhR90zq5JQsKPm5fxVV4HvzU)

The Southern Slavs of the Balkans have a demonic monster called a Psoglav which is dog-headed. They have the one-eyed (some accounts say 3 eyes) head of a dog, body shape of a man, teeth of iron, and the hooves of a horse. It is said they love to feast on human flesh, especially women and children. In addition to eating live people, they may dig up graves to consume corpses not unlike ghouls. It is said they dwell in caves or some presumably subterranean, sunless realm filled with gold and gemstones. Some Slavs say they are associated with the underworld or the Slavic god Veles. Other Slavs insist they are a problem in the far east as well, but I've seen no non-Slavic sources which corroborate this unless they are being conflated with more typical cynocephali.

Incidentally, ancient sources say the Argonauts battled groups of classical cynocephali along the Danube in the Serbia-Hungary area as well. Truly the Slavic lands are dark and full of terrors.

Quote from: WERDNA on January 24, 2024, 11:23:54 PM

Quote from: Cipher on January 22, 2024, 09:23:54 PM
To my surprise, it seems it is very similar to the german "Kobold". Which made me wonder where the D&D kobold as a small reptilian creature came from. Japanese media portray the kobold as basically canine folk.

There are similar creatures in almost every culture, it's quite fascinating. As for the appearance, Bell's kobold art in OD&D was gnome-like as per many folkloric depictions. Sutherland depicted them as scaly devil-dog things based on his interpretation of Gary's write up in the AD&D monster manual. WOTC went further and made them reptile guys distantly related to dragons for some reason. Japanese art has them as dogmen because the version of D&D first released in Japan was the Basic set with the very canine Erol Otus art, then Lodoss War and the Japanese ports of Wizardry ran with that direction.

THANK YOU! That was very informative!

The forest spirits in Scandinavia are called Skogsra. The most common type in folklore is the Huldra or Hulder. These are generally female faerie beings (the less common males are Huldrekall) which live in the northern forests. She appears as a beautiful woman with a few differences: the tail of a cow or fox, and a hollow opening in her back. The area around and within this "hollow" is compared with a tree and is presumably wooden making these fey plant-woman hybrid beings of a sort. The males may additionally possess furry legs or be outright portrayed as trolls.

In folk tales, the disposition of the creature varies often based on how they are treated, but occasionally they are depicted as malevolent. They can lure people with harp playing, singing, or dancing akin to the elves. On the other hand, if well-treated they may offer helpful knowledge about the forest, help with work, or fishing advice. Several stories give them the strength of ten or so men (sounds dangerous in combat). There are stories of human men marrying them within the Church. In some this results in the loss of their beauty and they become hags; in others they retain their fair countenance and lose only their tails and hollow backs thus becoming human although they may still possess supernatural strength.

***************

The Wusebi/Five Color Paint Brush is an interesting magic item found in Song Dynasty Chinese folk lore. Whatever is painted with this brush becomes real or comes to life if a living thing.

***************

After having read a (Google-translated) article off the University of Tehran's website, today I learned that the Lammasu/Shedu of Mesopotamian and MM1 fame is still relevant to folklore in the medieval period as, under the Persian variant the Gopat/Gopaitioshah, the creatures still appear in Islamic Persian lore in the 13th century text Marzban-nameh. Here it is a bull-demon among the Div/Jinn cast out to live in the wilds and caves. In this new role, it is less like the ancient holy guardian daimon and perhaps more like the related Jewish Shedim. Like the Shedim the Gopat can be more neutral, although plenty if not most are evil.

I've done some reading and decided to make a post on characteristics of pre-modern folklorically accurate Oni.

For those who do not know Oni are hairy, ogrish demonic beings that haunt the wild and spooky places of Japan. In some stories they resemble fairies dancing in the woods and giving boons or curses, but in most they are opponents for the hero to overcome. In Buddhist influenced lore they also torture sinners in Hell. Oni are often supernatural beings or spirits in their own right, but some are the result of a person's soul being tainted with a large amount of evil, hate, envy, etc. and transforming into one (aided by black magic in a few accounts). It's a bit like chaos corruption really.

Oni Characteristics and Powers (could probably makes some good tables from these)

• Oni may be red, blue, green, black or yellow in color (probably other colors as well).
• Oni may have one, two, three or more eyes. Even as many as 15 (or 10,000 in the special case of Dodomeki) has been attested.
• Oni may have anywhere from 3 to 6 digits and varied amounts of horns (maybe even no horn)
• Some Oni have no mouths at all
• Range in size from that of a child (Ko-Oni) to about 7 feet to giants able to swallow a man in one gulp. Size generally correlates to power.
• Oni love eating meat and drinking blood (often human). They also love women and alcohol along with the drunken revelry that comes with.
• Oni may wield various weapons such as tetsubo, mallets, mancatchers, swords, spears, axes, iron staves, sickles, etc.
• Oni have supernatural strength and constitution.
• Some Oni have the power of flight. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Some Oni can survive decapitation as a flying head. (source: Shuten-Doji and Otakemaru)
• Some Oni can pick up and reattach their severed limbs. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Many Oni can transform into both men and women. (source: Ibaraki-Doji, Otakemaru, etc.)
• Some Oni can summon thunder and Lightning.
• Some Oni can cause earthquakes.
• Some Oni can cause disease or bring forth plagues.
• Some Oni can summon strong gales. (source: Fuuki)
• Some Oni can cause floods. (source: Suiki)
• Some Oni can become invisible. (source: Ongyouki)
• Some Oni have hardened, near-invulnerable bodies. (source: Kinki)
• Some Oni can summon a rain of fire. (source: Kaki)
• Some Oni can move freely through earth and stone. (source: Doki)
• Many Oni can use magic. (source: Kidomaru, etc.)
• Oni may carry magical items. (source: Issunboshi's Oni)
• The greatest of Oni may persist after being slain as ghosts called Reiki.
• Powerful sorcerers have been reputed to bind Oni to their service. One member of the Fujiwara clan is said to have bound four to use as assassins.
• It is said throwing roasted soybeans in the faces of Oni will cause them to flinch buying time to flee.
• In some regions, magic charms made from sardine heads and holly are used to ward them off.
• The Oni of Kyoto's Suzakumon was capable of using magic and corpse parts to create an artificial human. Had it been left alone for 100 days it would have gained a soul and become a true human too. This Oni was also skilled at various board games and music.

Notes: The colors given are associated with the 5 Elements. It also seems worthy of note that one-eyed Oni are more common in more ancient tales from the Heian and Kamakura periods. Perhaps the various one-eyed youkai of the Edo period diverged from these Oni in folklore over time. I included specific folkloric Oni attested with the given powers as sources when available.

The Kijo is the female counterpart of the Oni and is also called the Hannya. Features can include horns, claws, demonic or haglike visages, tusk-like fangs, large yellowish eyes, snake bodies, blue or white skin, and white hair. Generally the amount of demonic features increases with the power and corruption of the individual from nearly human to completely monstrous. Kijo in folklore are almost always formed from women consumed by dark emotions or black magic. They can take a human form and in the powerful cases a draconic/serpentine form. Some can wield fire and/or breathe it. They are skilled in sorcery, curses, illusions, and the crafting of poisons and potions. One of the most commonly described powers is sending forth an ikiryo, an astral body of a living being which haunts a victim like a ghost often causing illness. Newly corrupted Kijo may do this unconsciously or accidentally.

Quote from: WERDNA on February 01, 2024, 02:08:59 AM
I've done some reading and decided to make a post on characteristics of pre-modern folklorically accurate Oni.

For those who do not know Oni are hairy, ogrish demonic beings that haunt the wild and spooky places of Japan. In some stories they resemble fairies dancing in the woods and giving boons or curses, but in most they are opponents for the hero to overcome. In Buddhist influenced lore they also torture sinners in Hell. Oni are often supernatural beings or spirits in their own right, but some are the result of a person's soul being tainted with a large amount of evil, hate, envy, etc. and transforming into one (aided by black magic in a few accounts). It's a bit like chaos corruption really.

Oni Characteristics and Powers (could probably makes some good tables from these)

• Oni may be red, blue, green, black or yellow in color (probably other colors as well).
• Oni may have one, two, three or more eyes. Even as many as 15 (or 10,000 in the special case of Dodomeki) has been attested.
• Oni may have anywhere from 3 to 6 digits and varied amounts of horns (maybe even no horn)
• Some Oni have no mouths at all
• Range in size from that of a child (Ko-Oni) to about 7 feet to giants able to swallow a man in one gulp. Size generally correlates to power.
• Oni love eating meat and drinking blood (often human). They also love women and alcohol along with the drunken revelry that comes with.
• Oni may wield various weapons such as tetsubo, mallets, mancatchers, swords, spears, axes, iron staves, sickles, etc.
• Oni have supernatural strength and constitution.
• Some Oni have the power of flight. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Some Oni can survive decapitation as a flying head. (source: Shuten-Doji and Otakemaru)
• Some Oni can pick up and reattach their severed limbs. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Many Oni can transform into both men and women. (source: Ibaraki-Doji, Otakemaru, etc.)
• Some Oni can summon thunder and Lightning.
• Some Oni can cause earthquakes.
• Some Oni can cause disease or bring forth plagues.
• Some Oni can summon strong gales. (source: Fuuki)
• Some Oni can cause floods. (source: Suiki)
• Some Oni can become invisible. (source: Ongyouki)
• Some Oni have hardened, near-invulnerable bodies. (source: Kinki)
• Some Oni can summon a rain of fire. (source: Kaki)
• Some Oni can move freely through earth and stone. (source: Doki)
• Many Oni can use magic. (source: Kidomaru, etc.)
• Oni may carry magical items. (source: Issunboshi's Oni)
• The greatest of Oni may persist after being slain as ghosts called Reiki.
• Powerful sorcerers have been reputed to bind Oni to their service. One member of the Fujiwara clan is said to have bound five to use as assassins.
• It is said throwing roasted soybeans in the faces of Oni will cause them to flinch buying time to flee.
• In some regions, magic charms made from sardine heads and holly are used to ward them off.
• The Oni of Kyoto's Suzakumon was capable of using magic and corpse parts to create an artificial human. Had it been left alone for 100 days it would have gained a soul and become a true human too. This Oni was also skilled at various board games and music.

Notes: The colors given are associated with the 5 Elements. It also seems worthy of note that one-eyed Oni are more common in more ancient tales from the Heian and Kamakura periods. Perhaps the various one-eyed youkai of the Edo period diverged from these Oni in folklore over time. I included specific folkloric Oni attested with the given powers as sources when available.

The Kijo is the female counterpart of the Oni and is also called the Hannya. Features can include horns, claws, demonic or haglike visages, tusk-like fangs, large yellowish eyes, snake bodies, blue or white skin, and white hair. Generally the amount of demonic features increases with the power and corruption of the individual from nearly human to completely monstrous. Kijo in folklore are almost always formed from women consumed by dark emotions or black magic. They can take a human form and in the powerful cases a draconic/serpentine form. Some can wield fire and/or breathe it. They are skilled in sorcery, curses, illusions, and the crafting of poisons and potions. One of the most commonly described powers is sending forth an ikiryo, an astral body of a living being which haunts a victim like a ghost often causing illness. Newly corrupted Kijo may do this unconsciously or accidentally.

At this point, I'm convinced that how you define an oni depends on the time and location.  I think I've come across more variations on oni than variations on elves/brownies/gnomes in European folklore.

Quote from: BadApple on December 19, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
The werewolf

The modern concept of the werewolf seems to be a creation of Edwardian fiction.  The idea that it is a curse that the sufferer doesn't have any control over is a rather new one.  The idea of a wolf-man bipedal creature is completely a Hollywood creation and was first done by Lon Cheney Jr. for the movie "The Wolf Man" in 1941.

In the Eastern European folklore tradition, a person could use magic to turn into a wolf using an item called a wolf strap.  Usually this was done to get into mischief and not be caught out as a human.  As with many folktale stories involving magic, you could dispel the transformation by speaking the person's real name.  Local traditions vary as to the competency of the person in wolf form; some stories have it where the werewolf was fully human mentally and others where they were still self aware but had their faculties dimmed to the level of a beast until they took human form.

An interesting aspect of the lore is that the wolf strap become part of the person that uses it.  If it is kept in a warm or cold place, the owner will always feel warm or cold.  Some variants hold that damage done to a wolf strap would be imparted to it's owner as well.

It's fascinating to me that so many cultures have some form of lycanthropy in their folklore.  The Hawaiians have sea turtles that that will transform into children and play with other children on the beach.  Eskimos have as a folklore tale that some seals are actually people and that they can take their seal skin off to engage with other people.  The Japanese of course have the takuni and fox shape shifters but they also had as part of their lore that shinobi could transform into wolves.  Some tribes in Africa see baboons as people with transforming abilities.  Australian aborigines have stories about people that shape shift into snakes.

Have you seen the film, "Brotherhood of the Wolf," which is based on a real French werewolf scare from revolutionary France?  Totally worth a watch.  I sometimes show it to my college students.

Quote from: Persimmon on February 01, 2024, 08:32:10 AM

Quote from: BadApple on December 19, 2023, 01:55:26 PM
The werewolf

The modern concept of the werewolf seems to be a creation of Edwardian fiction.  The idea that it is a curse that the sufferer doesn't have any control over is a rather new one.  The idea of a wolf-man bipedal creature is completely a Hollywood creation and was first done by Lon Cheney Jr. for the movie "The Wolf Man" in 1941.

In the Eastern European folklore tradition, a person could use magic to turn into a wolf using an item called a wolf strap.  Usually this was done to get into mischief and not be caught out as a human.  As with many folktale stories involving magic, you could dispel the transformation by speaking the person's real name.  Local traditions vary as to the competency of the person in wolf form; some stories have it where the werewolf was fully human mentally and others where they were still self aware but had their faculties dimmed to the level of a beast until they took human form.

An interesting aspect of the lore is that the wolf strap become part of the person that uses it.  If it is kept in a warm or cold place, the owner will always feel warm or cold.  Some variants hold that damage done to a wolf strap would be imparted to it's owner as well.

It's fascinating to me that so many cultures have some form of lycanthropy in their folklore.  The Hawaiians have sea turtles that that will transform into children and play with other children on the beach.  Eskimos have as a folklore tale that some seals are actually people and that they can take their seal skin off to engage with other people.  The Japanese of course have the takuni and fox shape shifters but they also had as part of their lore that shinobi could transform into wolves.  Some tribes in Africa see baboons as people with transforming abilities.  Australian aborigines have stories about people that shape shift into snakes.

Have you seen the film, "Brotherhood of the Wolf," which is based on a real French werewolf scare from revolutionary France?  Totally worth a watch.  I sometimes show it to my college students.

Love that movie.  Sometimes the French can make movies worth watching.

Quote from: BadApple on February 01, 2024, 07:52:30 AM

Quote from: WERDNA on February 01, 2024, 02:08:59 AM
I've done some reading and decided to make a post on characteristics of pre-modern folklorically accurate Oni.

For those who do not know Oni are hairy, ogrish demonic beings that haunt the wild and spooky places of Japan. In some stories they resemble fairies dancing in the woods and giving boons or curses, but in most they are opponents for the hero to overcome. In Buddhist influenced lore they also torture sinners in Hell. Oni are often supernatural beings or spirits in their own right, but some are the result of a person's soul being tainted with a large amount of evil, hate, envy, etc. and transforming into one (aided by black magic in a few accounts). It's a bit like chaos corruption really.

Oni Characteristics and Powers (could probably makes some good tables from these)

• Oni may be red, blue, green, black or yellow in color (probably other colors as well).
• Oni may have one, two, three or more eyes. Even as many as 15 (or 10,000 in the special case of Dodomeki) has been attested.
• Oni may have anywhere from 3 to 6 digits and varied amounts of horns (maybe even no horn)
• Some Oni have no mouths at all
• Range in size from that of a child (Ko-Oni) to about 7 feet to giants able to swallow a man in one gulp. Size generally correlates to power.
• Oni love eating meat and drinking blood (often human). They also love women and alcohol along with the drunken revelry that comes with.
• Oni may wield various weapons such as tetsubo, mallets, mancatchers, swords, spears, axes, iron staves, sickles, etc.
• Oni have supernatural strength and constitution.
• Some Oni have the power of flight. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Some Oni can survive decapitation as a flying head. (source: Shuten-Doji and Otakemaru)
• Some Oni can pick up and reattach their severed limbs. (source: Ibaraki-Doji)
• Many Oni can transform into both men and women. (source: Ibaraki-Doji, Otakemaru, etc.)
• Some Oni can summon thunder and Lightning.
• Some Oni can cause earthquakes.
• Some Oni can cause disease or bring forth plagues.
• Some Oni can summon strong gales. (source: Fuuki)
• Some Oni can cause floods. (source: Suiki)
• Some Oni can become invisible. (source: Ongyouki)
• Some Oni have hardened, near-invulnerable bodies. (source: Kinki)
• Some Oni can summon a rain of fire. (source: Kaki)
• Some Oni can move freely through earth and stone. (source: Doki)
• Many Oni can use magic. (source: Kidomaru, etc.)
• Oni may carry magical items. (source: Issunboshi's Oni)
• The greatest of Oni may persist after being slain as ghosts called Reiki.
• Powerful sorcerers have been reputed to bind Oni to their service. One member of the Fujiwara clan is said to have bound five to use as assassins.
• It is said throwing roasted soybeans in the faces of Oni will cause them to flinch buying time to flee.
• In some regions, magic charms made from sardine heads and holly are used to ward them off.
• The Oni of Kyoto's Suzakumon was capable of using magic and corpse parts to create an artificial human. Had it been left alone for 100 days it would have gained a soul and become a true human too. This Oni was also skilled at various board games and music.

Notes: The colors given are associated with the 5 Elements. It also seems worthy of note that one-eyed Oni are more common in more ancient tales from the Heian and Kamakura periods. Perhaps the various one-eyed youkai of the Edo period diverged from these Oni in folklore over time. I included specific folkloric Oni attested with the given powers as sources when available.

The Kijo is the female counterpart of the Oni and is also called the Hannya. Features can include horns, claws, demonic or haglike visages, tusk-like fangs, large yellowish eyes, snake bodies, blue or white skin, and white hair. Generally the amount of demonic features increases with the power and corruption of the individual from nearly human to completely monstrous. Kijo in folklore are almost always formed from women consumed by dark emotions or black magic. They can take a human form and in the powerful cases a draconic/serpentine form. Some can wield fire and/or breathe it. They are skilled in sorcery, curses, illusions, and the crafting of poisons and potions. One of the most commonly described powers is sending forth an ikiryo, an astral body of a living being which haunts a victim like a ghost often causing illness. Newly corrupted Kijo may do this unconsciously or accidentally.

At this point, I'm convinced that how you define an oni depends on the time and location.  I think I've come across more variations on oni than variations on elves/brownies/gnomes in European folklore.

Another fun oni fact.  In World War II some Japanese propaganda tried to portray the Allied leaders as oni.  It's not clear that it had much effect on the Japanese themselves and the Allied leaders didn't know what oni were so it failed on that count.

Along these lines, have you seen the Korean film, "The Wailing?"  Given this thread, you should absolutely see that film if you have not.

Quote from: BadApple on February 01, 2024, 07:52:30 AM
At this point, I'm convinced that how you define an oni depends on the time and location.  I think I've come across more variations on oni than variations on elves/brownies/gnomes in European folklore.

The art, at least, has remained more or less consistent. A typical oni in a Heian period picture scroll looks very much like one from the Edo or modern period.

In Germany, werewolves are almost always evil sorcerers, who turn themselves into wolves with the help of black magic (generally an enchanted wolf pelt). The most famous of these satanic werewolves is of course Peter Stubbe (aka Peter Stump), who was executed in 1589. A rather odd werewolf case is the Wolf of Ansbach (1685), who was supposedly an evil mayor returned from the dead.
An interesting creature of German folklore is the Moosweiblein (moss woman). Although moss men are sometimes mentioned, the moss women are much more common. They are described as small (around 3 feet), old, and ugly. They are often covered with moss or hairy. For some reason, the Wild Hunt likes to hunt them down and kill them.
One of my favorite "monsters" of Germanic folklore are the Fänggen (singular: Fang or Fangga) of Bavaria and Austria. Sometimes they are described as dryad-like fairies, but more often are depicted as wild giants. Johann Nepomuk von Alpenburg described them as follows: "huge, hairy all over the body, bristled, the face distorted, the mouth drawn from one ear to the other, the black hair of the head hanging full of beard lichens ... and reaches rough and shaggy down the back; in anger it curls up wildly, like a Fury's curls. The eyes are dark and night-black like coals, but also glow at times and and sparkle with lightning - the voice is a man's voice, rough and coarse. Their clothes are skirts of wildcat furs, coats of tree bark, and shaggy coats of foxes and other animals." 

Quote from: WERDNA on January 24, 2024, 11:23:54 PM
...
There are similar creatures in almost every culture, it's quite fascinating. As for the appearance, Bell's kobold art in OD&D was gnome-like as per many folkloric depictions. Sutherland depicted them as scaly devil-dog things based on his interpretation of Gary's write up in the AD&D monster manual.

I've always found the depictions of Kobolds as wrinkly cannibal gnomes to be far more evocative and sinister in appearance than when they are depicted in a more animal like anthropomorphic fashion...

Quote from: Jaeger on February 01, 2024, 03:34:36 PM
I've always found the depictions of Kobolds as wrinkly cannibal gnomes to be far more evocative and sinister in appearance than when they are depicted in a more animal like anthropomorphic fashion...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Olaus_Magnus_-_On_the_Service_of_Ghosts.jpg/800px-Olaus_Magnus_-_On_the_Service_of_Ghosts.jpg?20080902223303)
Kobolds and a troll circa 1555.

(https://bestiary.ca/beastimage/img104107.jpg)
(https://bestiary.ca/beastimage/img104104.jpg)
(https://bestiary.ca/beastimage/img105117.jpg)

The Sirens of mythology show up quite often in Medieval bestiaries and encyclopedias often showing up in art along with onocentaurs (but not in this post) representing lust or vanity. I was surprised to find that their kind apparently has its own males. While they almost always take the forms of humans from the waist up, they vary below the waist even within the same illustrations. Sometimes they have an appearance like a mermaid, yet other times they have a bird body with the human torso beginning around the neck. However, I'd say my preferred version is like the last image, where the sirenes have what seems to be the winged body of a web-footed bird below the waist but terminating in a fish tail.

"And they appear with their young, which they carry in their arms, for the mothers suckle the young, which they have at their breasts. And the sailors, when they see the sirens, are very much afraid, and then they throw an empty bottle to her, so that while she plays with the bottle, the ship escapes. This was testified by those who professed to have seen them. As for the rest, as Andelmus writes, they have a part of their body like that of the eagle, and claws on their feet capable of sculling; but at the end of their body they have the scaly tails of fishes, with which they swim like rowers in sea. They have a certain musical and sweet melody in their voice, with which the sailors, delighted and attracted, are sent into sleep, and the sleepers are torn apart by the claws of the sirens. These beasts are said to dwell on islands and sometimes in the waves. But some of the sailors, using a wise plan, block their ears strongly and thus pass unscathed, otherwise they would be disturbed by the deadly song of the sirens." - Thomas of Cantimpre in the Liber de Natura Rerum, 13th Century AD

Judging by the art, sirens may also play instruments and beat you to death with simple weaponry if the charm/sleep fails.

Thomas also relates knowledge of a subspecies of Siren from this same Andelmus:
"Scilla is a sea monster like the siren. Andelmus the philosopher truly says that this monster dwells in that sea which is between Italy and Sicily. Indeed, she is an enemy to the sailor and to all men, and delights in their blood and flesh. Her head and breast are, of course, shaped like a maiden, like sirens; and she has a grin and gaping mouth and horrible teeth and a belly like a beast and a tail like a dolphin. They are of wonderful strength and are not easily conquered in the water; but on earth they are less strong, and almost peaceful. They also have somewhat musical voices, and they are also wonderfully pleased with music."

It seems Scylla also became an entire race of sea monster. It was not uncommon for mythical creatures once described as one-of-a-kind to become a species in later writings; in fact, I'm surprised it took all the way until the modern period for this to occur with the Minotaur. Regardless, Andelmus also implies that scyllae live among dog-fish (whether these are sharks or literal mer-hounds or both would be up to interpretation) and relates them to the mythical Scylla's multiple dog heads.

Also, if anyone knows of this Andelmus fellow's identity, let me know as I have no idea.

Edit: The text from "Andelmus the Philosopher" seems to be related to that of the Liber Monstrorum linked to one Aldhelm of Malmesbury.

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"Zyphius, as the great Basilius says in the book Exameron, is very formidable. It is a beast of the sea, exceeding the estimation of men, so that the providential nature of things may be believed to have played in this monster. For it is not likened to the shape of other fishes, nor to the monsters of the sea, nor to the beasts of the earth, nor to the birds of the sky, but has an ideal form, in which only beasts can be glorified, so as to render a worthy spectacle to those who see it, and from this praise by those who see it, to the Creator of all things. Its head is absolutely monstrous; the abyss of its mouth you will flee like the abyss of death; of the eyes you will be horrified; if you see its body, you will admit that you have seen nothing like it anywhere."

I particularly like the depiction with the maw filled with circular rows upon rows of teeth. It's almost Lovecraftian in that it is treated as indescribable. The Zyphius became an owl-faced whale monster of the northern seas in later Renaissance texts.

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The sea dragon is a dragon of the sea and is very much like a dragon of the land with its size, gaping maw and hard scales, but has great fins in place of wings. Isidore gives the beast two stinger-arms near to its tail which are deadly poisonous. Thomas of Cantimpre makes the bite that which is venomous, but perhaps it has both. He also notes that sea-dragons can move quite quickly across large distances underwater on account of their great strength. According to Pliny, the sea dragon can dig through sand with great speed and often uses this ability to escape attackers if it is pulled onto land. It is likely the sea-dragon lairs in underwater caves it has so dug. Notably, its bones can be burned into an ash which makes for a most wonderous tooth powder which heals toothaches and strengthens the gums. I have read that its own dead flesh sliced and placed over the wound as a poultice is effective aid against the venom. A less commonly attested remedy would be a potion made from the sea-dragon's brain.

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The cacus of the medieval bestiary is a corruption of the Cacus who fought Heracles in Greco-Roman myth. It is a fierce, bristly-furred mammalian beast said to inhabit Arcadia in Greece and also the regions of Italy near to the Tiber River. It is said to be able to breathe fire against its foes. The cacus is not burned by its own flames; perhaps it is burned by no natural flame. It is predatory and often hunts cattle, dragging them by the tails back to the caves where it lairs.

For some stuff relevant to a Middle Eastern or Sword & Caravan game:
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It is said that in the East in a land along the Red Sea there are red hens which when touched by a man magically cause him to suddenly combust and die (this is slightly similar to the 1e AD&D MM2's Pyrolisk).

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In this same region are strange beasts with two heads and eight legs and eyes like gorgons. In other manuscripts, these are little beasts with one head, two horns, eight eyes and eight legs. Either way, they are said to swiftly flee from the sound of humans but fight viciously if cornered. Be well armed if you intend to hunt them.

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In the Assyrian deserts there are Corsias or Cerastes. These are venomous ram-horned serpents which guard pepper plants and allegedly contribute to the desert's infertility. Perhaps this is due to their venomous nature? There are also wild asses of large size with horns like those of oxen.

In Africa and Arabia, of course, there are mythical subtypes of human: Cynocephali, various types of giants, fish-eating pygmies, blemmeyes, but also a fair-skinned female race which ranges from 7' to 14' in height with long hair, cow tails, tusk resembling boars', and camel feet.
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One thing I feel was an oversight of Sword & Caravan in light of the early medieval text Wonders of the East is that the giant ants should have had a small % chance to be hoarding gold they've dug up in their lairs. It would have given PC's an additional reason to hunt for them.

Have you heard about Yokai.com yet?

I have! I use it semi-frequently.

Figured I'd drop a bunch of medieval Japanese magic rituals and practitioners from my notes I've learned about via the Internet and a number of books over the years:

Magic practitioners in Japan:
In the case of folk magic it could be almost anyone.

Nobles may secretly learn rituals if they can find teachers or scrolls. In many of the legends involving magicians summoning Oni or yokai to wreak havoc, these mages are mostly nobles sometimes even samurai.

Shinto Kannushi (priests) and Miko (priestesses) perform magics. Particularly Invocation and pacification of kami, purification, combatting and casting curses, necromancy, rain-making, Shamanic spirit possession, paper charms/Talismans, and various forms of divination like Bokusen, ornithomancy, and hydromancy. Spirit possession is most common among the priestesses. A Japanese book I read from the 1930's implied the presence of Shintoist sexual magic at one time including the conception of a "Divine Child" (Jp: Mikogami; like a moonchild?). If such survived into the middle ages it would be in isolated rural villages. Traveling shamanesses not or loosely affiliated with shrines also existed. [Unfinished Section]

Buddhist priests and sometimes nuns who utilize rituals of esoteric mikkyo Buddhism particularly from Shingon and Tendai sects. Including mudra, mantra, paper charms/talismans, Goma/Homa Fire ritual, āveśa possession, and various tantra. Some of these arts are said to have passed to the Ninja. The nuns sometimes adopted spirit possession from the Shinto tradition. Some Buddhist clergy practice modified Liu Ren divination and astrology (Medieval Japanese Buddhist astrological texts are very similar to Persian style western astrology with Chinese elements; in fact, the planetary spirit illustrations in one of the surviving manuscripts are clearly derived from Persian works).

Shugenja and Yamabushi who use the arts of both Shinto and Buddhist practice following the example of En no Ozuna. Among the Buddhist practices they are best known for variants of Goma fire rituals. These are also well known for using genjutsu (illusion and prestidigitation). Some ninja were said to have learned a bit of the magic of shugendo.

Onmyouji who serve the elite. These are magicians who focus mostly on the Taoist tradition with Shinto and perhaps some Buddhist elements. They are associated with shikiban (Liu Ren) divination, I Ching divination, astrology, purification, fusui (Feng shui), combatting curses (or casting them), mantras, paper charms/talismans, using familiar shikigami spirits, invoking and pacifying deities and spirits, rain making, etc. They may possess knowledge of Chinese external alchemy (not Internal) though it lost popularity after the Nara period.

Street performers like the Heian and Kamakura period Kugutsushi or later Muromachi period Shomoji and street magicians (genjutsushi) also had ties to the magical arts. Shomoji were associated with a variety of religious and onmyo rituals in addition to the performing arts. The Muromachi and Sengoku periods were a golden age of famous street illusionists like Kashin Koji (reputed to be an actual wizard) and Kato Danzo (who was also a ninja). Toward the end of the Sengoku era when the government began to crack down on Christianity, street magic performances, despite a multi-century history, were banned as "black arts of the Christian Fathers" for a while amusingly enough.

Nademono Purification: A onmyo ritual where a paper doll roughly in the shape of a human is crafted by the practitioner. The target to be purified of sin and ritual pollution must rub it on their bodies and breathe upon it to transfer the corruption. The practitioner then take it back and prays to the gods over it before floating it down a running waterway. Some practitioners refold them into little boats before doing this.

Bokusen Divination: Divination through heating bones in a fire and interpreting the cracks in relation to positive/negative queries. Often a tortoise shell or deer scapula.

Ushi no Koku Mairi: Vestament: White Clothing, white face paint (Red in older times), a Mirror worn on chest, Ichiba Geta, a wooden comb or bamboo and pine root brand lit at both ends in the mouth, wearing upon the head an inverted iron gotoku tripod topped with three lit candles. The practitioner must head to a Shinto shrine and nail a staw effigy representing the target to a sacred tree at the Hour of the Ox. Silence must be maintained and other people avoided lest the curse misfire onto them or otherwise fail. The ritual must be performed successfully for seven nights. On the seventh a spirit will be summoned in the form of a black ox. If the practitioner mounts the bull without fear, the spirit will fulfill the curse. The curse causes a fatal illness beginning in the part of the body where the doll was nailed. Performing this ritual is an act of chaos with some risk of turning into an Oni (mutation). It also possible to request this of the spirit directly.

Inugami Ritual: An illegal chaotic ritual often associated with continental Gu magic. In this ritual one buries a dog up to it's neck with food just out of reach. As it is at its hungriest and stretching its neck toward the food, decapitate it. Take the severed head into a vessel and secretly enshrine it within the home. The dog-spirit (inugami) will become a powerful familiar capable of death curses, biting foes to death, possess living things and objects, giving oracles, and stealing. The form of the Inugami is of a dog with a split tail or a flying vicious dog head. The Inugami will serve the practitioner and his house loyally unless they abuse it in which case they will be bitten to death. There was a record of a case where a Shinto Miko was generating Inugami and selling them in vessels at market. Furthermore, there is a version of this ritual to create a Nekogami with a calico cat instead in Kii Province said to have been passed down by tantric priests from Honganji in the 14th or 15th century.

Taizan Fukun no Sai: A powerful and secret Onmyo ritual mainly invoking the Taoist god of Mt. Tai. An onmyo altar is erected and the divinities are summoned. They are requested to deal with matters regarding lifespans and may extend lifespans, prevent death from fatal wounds or illness, or even resurrect the recently deceased. An argument for the value of the deceased must be presented and rich sacrifices offered: Gold, silver, horses or even human life. For minor intervention the gods may be satisfied with a false sacrifice of substituted paper dolls or a trivial amount of a person's life; however, in major cases they will require more possibly resulting in what is effectively sacrificing one or more lives for another.

Izuna Ritual: Shinto folk magic used to grant a fox familiar, typically a kudagitsune kept in a bamboo tube or kimono sleeve. Often associated with Yamabushi. The process is as follows: Find and tame a pregnant vixen, take care of her until she gives birth, she will ask you to name a kit, and that kit shall be your loyal familiar. There are dangers that the familiar may cause mischief on your behalf without being asked or may multiply with others of it's kind increasing the number of familiars to a difficult to handle degree (as the children will also serve the practitioner and his house). Common uses of the familiar are as spies, oracles, performing curses, possession, cause disease, or steal from others. For this reason, suspected practitioners are often persecuted by their communities akin to witches in the Far West. There are variants of this practice which utilize tanuki or snakes (toubyo) but are otherwise identical.

Houkigami Ritual: i.e. A Broom Ritual for Safe Childbirth. This is a Shinto folk ritual which entails gently sweeping a broom over the belly of a pregnant woman (as if to sweep the child out safely) while invoking the spirit of brooms and childbirth, Houkigami.

Tachikawa Skull Ritual:
"If anyone would practice this secret Dharma (Ritual) and attain great Siddhi (magical powers), he must construct an object of worship (honzon). I do not refer to the auspicious face of a woman here; this misogi (purification Rite) is a skull. There are, in fact, ten different types of skull that may be used:
1 the skull of a wise man
2 the skull of an ascetic
3 the skull of a king
4 the skull a shogun
5 the skull of a great minister
6 the skull of an elder
7 the skull of a father
8 the skull of a mother
9 a "Thousand Cranium" skull
10 a "Dharamdhatu" (entire material universal) skull.

The first eight are clear enough. The "Thousand Cranium" skull is made by grinding the tops of a thousand men's skulls into flour and molding the bone-paste into a honzon. For the "Dharmadhātu" skull, one must go to a cemetery on the chōyō (an onmyodo festival held on the 9th day of the 9th month. Since the number 9 is the perfect maximum yang/yō in Chinese divination it is seen as a particularly powerful and auspicious day. See: kuji-in), collects a large number of skulls, chants dākini (Dakini represent an especially crucial component of the Skull Ritual) incantations/prayers, and prays over the skulls. Finally, he takes the one, that when placed at the bottom of pile of skulls repeatedly rises to the top of the pile; or else he goes out on a frosty morning and selects the one that on which no frost has formed. Or, best of all, he selects a skull that is completely free of suture lines.

Whatever type he chooses can be made into a honzon (object of worship). For any of the ten types of skull there are three methods of construction possible. These are "the whole head", "the small head", and "the moon-shaped head". For "the whole head", the officiant uses the original skull. To this he adds a chin, puts in a tongue and teeth, and covers the bone with a hard lacquer so that it looks just like the unblemished flesh of a living person. When the skull has been completely formed, he places it in a box. Then he must have sexual intercourse with the skull and with a beautiful and willing woman, and must repeatedly wipe the liquid product (the mixture of male and female seminal and vaginal secretions) of this act on the skull until it reaches 120 layers. Each night at midnight he must burn "Spirit returning" incense (frankincense/hangon-kō), pass the smoke through the eye holes of the skull, and chant a "spirit returning" mantra fully and perfectly one thousand times.

After carrying out the procedure above for a number of days, the officiant places the appropriate charms and secret talismans (sōō motsu) into the skull. Once this procedure has been meticulously completed, he covers the skull with three layers of gold and silver leaf. Over these layers, the mandala must be inscribed, and then more gold and silver leafe applied, then another mandala applied over that, just as before. Thus the layers of gold and silver foil and sacred writings are built up – the outer layers are five and six, then in the center thirteen layers, all over the base of 120 layers of the red and white elixir (male and female sexual secretions). (Presumably this will equal the thickness of muscle and flesh of a real person) The ink of the mandlas should also be the twin fluids of intercourse.

Cinnabar (mercury sulfide) is rubbed into the tongue and lips, the teeth are set in silver leaf, and the eyes are painted in comely fashion, or, precious gems (jade, mother of pearl, or cornelian) can be used for the eyes. Them face is painted white and rouge patted in to create the appearance of a beautiful woman or boy. The image must look prosperous and have a face that smiles without the slightest hint of reproach.

During the entire process the sacred skull is to be kept on an altar in a place where no one ever goes, and various delicacies, beautiful flowers, and fine wines are to be offered to it. No one must go there (to the skull altar) but the craftsman, the adept, and the woman. There (at the skull altar) they must happily and willingly and ceaselessly disport themselves as if celebrating the first three days of the New Year. Each act and word must be wholly free of any sign of care.

Once the honzon is finished, it is installed on the altar. Offerings of rare things are made daily; spirit-returning incense is burned; and the various observations are carried out at the hours of the Rat, the Ox, and the Tiger (midnight to dawn). With the arrival of the Hour of the Hare (dawn), the honzon is placed in a bag made of seven layers of brocade. Once this bag has been closed, it is not easy to reopen. Every night the bag is held close to the adept's body to keep it (the skull) warm; during the day it is placed on the altar, where delicacies (fowl, fish, meats, blood, rice, and so on) must be gathered and offered for its nourishment.

For seven years, day and night, the adept must and will devote the whole of his being and mind to this practice. When the eight year comes, the ascetic will obtain Siddhi (magical powers). For those who reach the highest grade of practice, the honzon will return to life and speak aloud (presumably predicting the future and bestowing upon the practitioner great Wisdom and knowledge). Since it will inform him of all events of the universe, he should listen carefully to it and thus become as someone with divine powers. For practitioners of the middle rank, the honzon will tell them the meaning of their dreams. It will not speak to those of the lower ranks, but all their desires will come to be realized in accordance with their wishes.

The second method, the "Small Head" method, exists because of the difficulty of carrying around a whole head. The top of one whole skull can be divided into eight pieces and each piece used as a face lacquered into a plate made of wood of a sacred tree. Again, one sketches in the mandala in thin layers, daubs the honzon with the twin waters of intercourse, inserts the appropriate charms and talismans, and decorates the face just as before. The "Small head" is then hung around the neck but under the garments, and nourished just as before.

In the case of the third. "Moon-Shaped" method, a whole cranium is cut off at the eyebrows, the brain pan is carefully dried and cleaned, and the moon-shaped inner cavity coated with the lacquer of the twin waters of intercourse. Various charms and talismans are placed in it, again the mandala is laid out in thin color, all as before. On the surface of the "Moon-skull" the practitioner must paint a honzon while continuously reciting mantras. Cinnabar in packed inside. Then the practitioner is to wrap the skull in a nine-layered Monk's habit made from silk stained with menstrual blood of a beautiful young virgin woman. He then places it in a nine-layered casket wrapped in seven layers of brocaded silk, hangs it from his neck under his garments (to keep it dry and warm), and devoutly recites mantras to it wherever he goes.

There are recommended variations on this procedure, from taking the skull to its final installation and resurrection, since several oral (kuden) teachings have been handed down by the old and wise. I have noted and summarized only about one-hundredth of the whole Ritual. But in general this is how the practitioner carries out this Ritual."

The skull may serve the practitioner through the 7 spirits bound to the remains. A higher level practitioner may receive knowledge in dreams while the highest may create a skull able to speak oracles. These 7 spirits will take on the forms of dakini, foxes/jackals, or Buddhas as the situation requires. This ritual was sometimes associated with elements of the Izuna sect of Shinano province as was Izuna Ritual and Dakiniten Ritual (see below). This practice and the Tachikawa school of Shingon Buddhism itself were considered heretical.

Esoteric Buddhist Spells:
Esoteric Buddhist spells are typically Goma Fire Rituals or Tantra. Holy oils contain boiled milk and honey.

There are 5 stages in Goma: Invocation to Katen (Agni), Protective Invocation to Gozanze-Myo (Trailokyavijaya), Main Deity Invocation, Invocation to the 73 major deities, Invocation to Devas of the outer Mandala.

Pacifying Rites
Often invoke Fudo myoo (Acala). Used to drive away illness spirits, ease childbirth, safe sea travel, protect from fire or natural disasters, etc. Vestments are white. Kanboku liquorice flowers are burned. Best time is the start of night. Altar should face north with a round hearth.

Subduing rites (keiaihoo, Aizenhoo; S: vasikarana)
A love enchantment very popular in the Heian period: The hearth is round like an eight-petalled lotus flower, facing west. The best time of day for the ceremony is midnight. Vestments of the priests of red color. The main object of worship is Aizen Myoo (Ragaraja). The ceremony often lasted an entire night (ichiya goma). 108 flowers, mostly red lotuses, are burned in the 3rd stage. If a triangular hearth is used here, as in banishing rites, a previously unruly partner becomes submissive to the victim and does what the other wants

Banishing rites (choobukuhoo, chuubukuhoo, goobukuhoo) (S: aabhicaarika)
A type of black magic for cursing and subduing enemies: The hearth is triangular, facing south. The triangle here is the symbol of fire, which is used to destroy enemies. The best time of day for the ceremony is midday or night. Vestments of the priests of green and black color. Old wood (koboku) is burned. Red flowers with a pungent scent. The healing being invoked is usually Daigensui Myoo (Atavaka) or the five great wisdom kings (godai myoo). These ceremonies are among the oldest; Through them, particularly powerful deities are summoned and so in times of crisis the ruler often ordered them to protect the country or to overpower enemies of the state (seiteki, onteki). In a sense they were also political instruments and their history is particularly interesting (see Takemitsu). There are four other subgroups of these rites.

Life-prolonging rites (enmeihoo, Fugen enmeihoo)
A sub-form of the multiplying rites that was particularly popular in Japan. Prayers to extend one's lifespan. The stove is rectangular, the handle of the cover is in the shape of a wishing jewel with a wreath of flames. The salvation being invoked is Fugen Enmei Bosatsu (Vajramongha Samayasattva) with two or twenty arms. There is also a ritual for a six month life extension invoking Fudo myoo.

Japanese sources also state that in India and Tibet there are said to be rites for killing enemies (jusatsuhoo; see Pundit's Magic of Kunlun), for breaking ties with unwanted friends (rikanhoo), etc.

Dakiniten Ritual: A secret Buddhist ritual which invokes Dakiniten and is often portrayed as summoning her in the form of a fox/fox-woman. Generally grants temporal power, may be lost as quickly as was gained.

Shugenja usually invoke Fudo-Myou or Zao Gongen in pacifying rites vs misfortune

The mountain range of the Shugenja from Kumano to Yoshino is a Mandala for magical purposes.

This is a lot of the research I've been gathering for the magic system for my current project.  My goal is to make a shinobi game set in the Sengoku period and dial the magic and mysticism up to making it a fantasy RPG somewhere between low fantasy and high fantasy.  Essentially, I want it to be a setting that does for feudal Japan what Lion & Dragon does for The War of the Roses.

Interesting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMInteresting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

In Christian tradition, any use of magic is considered a contract with the devil.  There were no officially recognized court mages in Christian European nations.  This is also true in Islamic countries.  There was no distinction between witches and great wizards, they were all sinners in need of burning.  Many western magic users practiced in secret, always afraid of getting caught.

Officially John Dee was the Court Astronomer and an advisor.

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 13, 2024, 06:17:15 AMOfficially John Dee was the Court Astronomer and an advisor.

This is where you get into what are now called the Natural Sciences (astonomy, chemistry, biology, physics, etc.), but before the organized procedures of the scientific method were often called the Natural Magics.

The dividing line for The Medieval and Renaissance Catholic Church was that studying and applying the nature and functions of God's Creation was morally licit; God had given dominion over the Earth to Man and placed these properties within His Creation for Man's benefit, so seeking them out was what God intended for us.

Other forms of magic involved communing and bargaining with spirits of unknown origin (sure, it can say it's an angel or your dead granny, and maybe sometimes it even could be, but demons lie and seek every opportunity to lead men into sin and you're literally knocking on their door to ask for advice) are deemed sinful because you aren't putting your faith in God (nor that your prayers to Him will be heard and answered in what God deems is best for you).

From a modern perspective, none of the natural magics are actually magic, they're applied proto-science. But from the perspective of the time Clarke's Law holds... misunderstood science/technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Astronomy in particular is one of those areas that fell under Natural Magic. Sure, the movement of the planets and stars has little to do determining outcomes on Earth (certainly not wars, famines and the like), but it was studying the natural world for clues (and it's not like the Bible didn't record God using celestial events to mark important actions by Him on Earth) and so wasn't sinful, just not terribly useful for what they were hoping to find (it was, however, extremely useful for navigation, timekeeping, and eventually our understanding of the cosmos).

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMWhat is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

The late Roman and early Medieval Church theoretically didn't believe in the existence of magic. You were expected to do penance for the pagan superstition of believing in or practicing it. That said most people at that time did believe in it as many secular law codes show.

In the High and Late Middle ages it was posited that magic was mostly fake but sometimes an illusion of the senses caused by demons.

At first the Catholic Church was against witch hunts but the zeitgeist of the times ultimately won out.

On the matter of transformation into newts or other animals: the official line became that it was demons modifying the perception of both the "transformed" and observers, but some respectable scholars did suggest that if allowed by God demons may actually reorganize one's atoms into the new form. Gervase of Tillsbury I believe may have held this view.

Quote from: WERDNA on December 19, 2023, 01:21:07 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 19, 2023, 01:10:56 AMSome of my Pundit Files issues were going to feature these monsters.

Exciting to hear. I'm sure you'll do better than Oriental Adventures did with them (not that I blame them, research would've been harder back then). ...Wait, why past tense?

As it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

Quote from: BadApple on May 13, 2024, 05:25:03 AM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMInteresting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

In Christian tradition, any use of magic is considered a contract with the devil.  There were no officially recognized court mages in Christian European nations.  This is also true in Islamic countries.  There was no distinction between witches and great wizards, they were all sinners in need of burning.  Many western magic users practiced in secret, always afraid of getting caught.

That's completely wrong. For most of the middle ages there was no distinction between science and magic, and for that matter some of the humanities and medicine too. And there was no notion whatsoever that high magic was "of the devil". Folk magic was a bit different but for most of the middle ages the main view of both Church and Crown to folk magic was that most of it was just empty powerless superstition.

Only certain very specific forms of magical activities were either illegal or banned by the church or both. Poisoning and enchantment were illegal. Making pacts with demons (summoned by evocation) was banned by the church (note: binding demons was not). Doing divinations about the King without the King's express permission was illegal, as it was seen as somewhere between espionage and treason. The church forbade certain practices of Alchemy which required dead bodies, and these were typically outlawed by the crown too.  Magic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church. And trying to make gold using alchemy required a costly permit.

There were absolutely court magicians in various Christian nations. Dee was Queen Elizabeth's astrologer (and also one of the first spies in Her Majesty's Secret Service, with the code number "007"); he selected the date for her coronation using astrology, everyone knew it, and thought it was perfectly fine. He was later courted by various monarchs of Europe who wanted him to be THEIR court magician. Likewise Edward Kelley.

Of course, a MUCH bigger patron of magic than the royal crowns was the CHURCH. Countless monasteries engaged in the studies of "natural philosophy", including alchemy and all kinds of conjuring. There were popes who had practiced magic. And great saints; including Thomas Aquinas, who studied under the great and renowned philosopher-friar Albertus Magnus, who as not only a Dominican monk but also the CHAIR OF THEOLOGY at the University of Paris in the 1240s.

So you're just unbelievably, ridiculously, moronically wrong.

I'll add that Michael Scotus served in a similar capacity as Dee for Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II in earlier times.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:39:02 PM

Quote from: BadApple on May 13, 2024, 05:25:03 AM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 13, 2024, 02:43:17 AMInteresting to me is the lore surrounding how magic users are regarded. What is that dividing line between "muh court whyzhard" and "burn her before she turns us all into newts!" I've often wondered?

Historically you had magicians like dee and kelly, who worked for the crown as magicians, known to be engaged with divining contact with angels to learn from them the enochian language, the language of creation, in order to work magic...the whole thing appearing to have the approval of both government and heaven, as opposed the hated reviled witch or sorceror in lore.

I suppose it likely has something to do with the nature of the practices in question; if man is given earthly dominion by god then it would be contradictory to serve or deal with as equals any demons, devils, undead, entities, or spirits...yet it would seem there is an implication i am detecting which says that conjuring an old bitch-devil and beating it into submission with your wand in the name of god and making it teach you featherfall is perfectly ok or something.

Never quite nailed this down but thats the best i came up with.

In Christian tradition, any use of magic is considered a contract with the devil.  There were no officially recognized court mages in Christian European nations.  This is also true in Islamic countries.  There was no distinction between witches and great wizards, they were all sinners in need of burning.  Many western magic users practiced in secret, always afraid of getting caught.

That's completely wrong. For most of the middle ages there was no distinction between science and magic, and for that matter some of the humanities and medicine too. And there was no notion whatsoever that high magic was "of the devil". Folk magic was a bit different but for most of the middle ages the main view of both Church and Crown to folk magic was that most of it was just empty powerless superstition.

Only certain very specific forms of magical activities were either illegal or banned by the church or both. Poisoning and enchantment were illegal. Making pacts with demons (summoned by evocation) was banned by the church (note: binding demons was not). Doing divinations about the King without the King's express permission was illegal, as it was seen as somewhere between espionage and treason. The church forbade certain practices of Alchemy which required dead bodies, and these were typically outlawed by the crown too.  Magic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church. And trying to make gold using alchemy required a costly permit.

There were absolutely court magicians in various Christian nations. Dee was Queen Elizabeth's astrologer (and also one of the first spies in Her Majesty's Secret Service, with the code number "007"); he selected the date for her coronation using astrology, everyone knew it, and thought it was perfectly fine. He was later courted by various monarchs of Europe who wanted him to be THEIR court magician. Likewise Edward Kelley.

Of course, a MUCH bigger patron of magic than the royal crowns was the CHURCH. Countless monasteries engaged in the studies of "natural philosophy", including alchemy and all kinds of conjuring. There were popes who had practiced magic. And great saints; including Thomas Aquinas, who studied under the great and renowned philosopher-friar Albertus Magnus, who as not only a Dominican monk but also the CHAIR OF THEOLOGY at the University of Paris in the 1240s.

So you're just unbelievably, ridiculously, moronically wrong.

I fully acknowledge that my statement was way overly simplified.  The middle ages covers a lot of time, a lot of perspectives, and a lot of cultures.  Doctrinal interpretation was spotty at best and so was what magic was understood to be.

If you mean that magic is an umbrella term for anything that doesn't have an immediate corporal explanation, then you are correct.  However, there is a lot of distinction made between "divine mysteries" and "magic" from a Roman Catholic perspective.  The exploration of the first was encouraged while the second was heresy.  Natural philosophies were largely seen to fall into the divine mysteries camp.

I don't have access to my library right now so I can't give you references and I'm unable to give a counterpoint in the developed and intelligent way I would like to.  What I can say is that the Roman Catholic church has reclassified many fields of study but the principle idea that messing with the supernatural for personal gain is magic and heretical just like it was a thousand years ago.

Again, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 06:10:43 AMAgain, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Ok, but how common were magicians?

At a 30,000 foot overview, those practicing magic in Europe were very rare and almost always persecuted as heretics if they weren't doing it under the direct supervision of the church.  Sure, there are exceptions but there wasn't anything along the lines of "court wizard." 

Magic practitioners in Europe were about as rare and controlled as nuclear reactors are today in the US.  Sure, they exist but less than one percent of the population have actually seen one from the outside, let alone directly interacted with one.

Compare that to just about any other place in the world outside of Christendom or the Islamic Caliphates.  Practitioners of mystic arts were just part of the tapestry of daily life.  Particularly renowned magicians were elevated to regional or national level power in their field but shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, etc. were available to most people.

Double post, sorry.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:39:02 PMMagic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church.

Of all the laws mentioned, this is the only one with which I wasn't familiar. Do you have a source so I can read the law myself? The subject is of interest to me.

Quote from: BadApple on May 16, 2024, 01:51:51 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 06:10:43 AMAgain, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Ok, but how common were magicians?

At a 30,000 foot overview, those practicing magic in Europe were very rare and almost always persecuted as heretics if they weren't doing it under the direct supervision of the church.  Sure, there are exceptions but there wasn't anything along the lines of "court wizard." 

Magic practitioners in Europe were about as rare and controlled as nuclear reactors are today in the US.  Sure, they exist but less than one percent of the population have actually seen one from the outside, let alone directly interacted with one.

Compare that to just about any other place in the world outside of Christendom or the Islamic Caliphates.  Practitioners of mystic arts were just part of the tapestry of daily life.  Particularly renowned magicians were elevated to regional or national level power in their field but shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, etc. were available to most people.

The answer to this depends on how one defines magicians. For all of the middle ages, most peasant villages had some kind of wise man or cunning woman, who did folk magic. They were generally valued by the people; and contrary to the claims of some modern wiccans or whatever, they absolutely considered themselves to be Christians (at least after the very earliest part of the middle ages).

When it comes to "high magic", the situation is somewhat different. The fall of Rome meant that learning largely collapsed in most of Europe, and so there were relatively few magicians during the dark ages and early middle ages on the Christian side of things (of course, pagan magicians abounded in pagan cultures). Alongside the rise of the monasteries, there was a slow process of rediscovery of knowledge, and magic included among these. In the Early middle ages the vast majority of non-folk magicians were monks or priests. This led to a large number of the aristocracy having advisors that were skilled in at least some magical practices. It's said that in the court of Louis the Pious, every great nobleman had a personal astrologer, many of whom were said to be Irish monks, and of course were also at the same time employed as general learned men and chroniclers. This type of magic, having a kind of legitimacy from the ancient world, was seen completely different from the "pagan" folk practices of the peasantry. What was forbidden by law was "maleificium", curses and other kinds of evil magic.

And of course, there were more magicians in the Byzantine empire and in Islamic Spain. The Pope Sylvester II first learned magic while in Catalonia.

Around the 13th century, the University began to appear as a separate institution to that of the Monasteries, a place of secular learning. Once again, a great many scholars engaged in the study and practice of magic. And while it is true that not every court had some kind of official magician, a great many had a learned man who was prized for having magic as one of his talents. That's why John Dee was courted throughout Europe; he was one of the most famous men in the Christian world and everyone wanted him.

Quote from: WERDNA on May 16, 2024, 04:23:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:39:02 PMMagic that attempted to spontaneously create life (homunculi, for example) was banned by the church.

Of all the laws mentioned, this is the only one with which I wasn't familiar. Do you have a source so I can read the law myself? The subject is of interest to me.

Hmm, I'm trying to find it but my searching ability is not going so well (google's 2024 algorithms focus so much on the banal its frustrating). It is within the realm of possibility that I could be remembering this wrong, and that it was not something that the Vatican itself made a statement about but was only condemned at certain times by local secular or religious authorities. I'm not sure now.

Quote from: BadApple on May 16, 2024, 01:51:51 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 06:10:43 AMAgain, the only forms of magic that were forbidden were ones that touched directly on other laws or rules of the Crown or Church. Things like enchantment, necromancy, trying to create (artificial) life, curses or other forms of witchcraft etc.

Of course if your magical investigations led you to conclusions that were contrary to whatever the rather malleable positions of the Church were at any given time, you could find yourself executed for it, but the same was true of people who did the same with hard science.

And again, for the entirety of the middle ages until the Renaissance really got into gear, the vast majority of magicians in Christian Europe were Catholic monks or priests.

Ok, but how common were magicians?

At a 30,000 foot overview, those practicing magic in Europe were very rare and almost always persecuted as heretics if they weren't doing it under the direct supervision of the church.  Sure, there are exceptions but there wasn't anything along the lines of "court wizard." 

Magic practitioners in Europe were about as rare and controlled as nuclear reactors are today in the US.  Sure, they exist but less than one percent of the population have actually seen one from the outside, let alone directly interacted with one.

Compare that to just about any other place in the world outside of Christendom or the Islamic Caliphates.  Practitioners of mystic arts were just part of the tapestry of daily life.  Particularly renowned magicians were elevated to regional or national level power in their field but shaman, medicine men, witch doctors, etc. were available to most people.

I guess I'm luck because I live close to Arkansas and grew up going camping in a state park on a lake next to the reactor.

I would argue that it depends on what skill level of practitioners you mean. Like Pundit pointed out a significant number of villages had 'wise men/women' that used folk magic. So if you include them as part of the lore, there is a significantly high number of them

I remember hearing a lecture on the middle ages that included how they mixed folk "magic" with Chrisitan miracles. I can't remember the exact quote bit it was something like "If your horse or cow has been shot by ilf bow and is sick, then (I can't remember the folk magic fix) or go to the pries or deacon for (I can't remember what the prayers or action were supposed to be).

Of course this is different than the high magic for an alchemist / natural philosopher. That is a higher level and requires 'learning' that exceeds that of a local hedge-mage so there is inherently going to be fewer of them.

Now to get back on the supernatural lore, one thing that has always interested me is the idea that even users of dark arts knew that curses were dangerous even to the caster and what one cursed the curse returned on them (so the caster tried to make sure the one wanted the curse was the one that actually did the cursing). Not sure how that would come into play mechanically in a RPG, but ...

Quote from: Lurker on May 16, 2024, 11:04:03 PMI remember hearing a lecture on the middle ages that included how they mixed folk "magic" with Chrisitan miracles. I can't remember the exact quote bit it was something like "If your horse or cow has been shot by ilf bow and is sick, then (I can't remember the folk magic fix) or go to the pries or deacon for (I can't remember what the prayers or action were supposed to be).

Yes indeed. That charm would be an example of Anglo-Saxon healing galdr. Honestly I think the spell you're thinking of or a similar one has been statted out for OSR games in Crawford's Wolves of God.

Yes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 23, 2024, 08:58:04 AMhttps://abookofcreatures.com/ cross-references a lot of weird creatures with citations and includes fact checking to fix fakelore. A lot of these creatures are weird, particularly when it comes to things like harvesting their body parts for ingredients.

Fearsome critters are my favorite because they're Americana. D&D owes so much to the Old West, so I think there need to be more overt western influences and fearsome critters. Less Lord of the Rings, more Wizard of Oz. Cowboys fighting orcs and snallygasters. But I suppose that's for a different thread

Thanks for the link!

Quote from: Crazy_Blue_Haired_Chick on April 18, 2024, 09:25:20 AMHave you heard about Yokai.com yet?

Thanks for the link!

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

I grew up around this type of ideology.  I have met and spent time talking with Mike Warnke, Kennith Copland, and Carmen Licciardello.  Not to mention the fact that I've studied some Catholic esoteric theory.  What became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.  (You better believe there are still a lot of people steeped in it.)  Many of the Manuals of Inquisition are pretty easy to understand for me as they look a lot (in spirit if not procedure) like the stuff the Evangelicals put out on the subject.

From a conservative Christian perspective, both now and then, all supernatural happenings are either divine or satanic.  A lot of effort goes into figuring out which one is which.  Miracles are divine supernatural events and magic is the result of occult satanic ritual.     

What nearly anyone practicing magic in the middle ages in Europe would need to do is either a) keep it hidden or b) convince onlookers that it was divine in nature and therefore not occult.

Pundit, you said that a lot of it comes down to how you define magic.  I agree. 

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

The above is basically the reason why terms like "Natural Philosophy" (and "Natural Magic") arose in the first place. One thing about the Catholic Church; it likes to define things. It creates terms specifically to distinguish things from what might otherwise be lumped together if the differences are spiritually significant (and sometimes even if they aren't).

"That guy over there is a wizard, I'm a natural philosopher."

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AMWhat became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.

By this are you referring to the Witch trials? I'd associate the creation of the inquisition more with the increase of influence held by the Cathars.

It's funny to me how strong the image of witch trials and magical suppression is with regards to the Church. There was a period of witch trials in Syria shortly before the birth of Christ, a magical papyri burning ordered by Augustus Caesar, a pre-Christian expulsion of astrologers, and a number of Imperial laws against magical practices (often associated with "superstitio").

Why aren't the pagan Romans seen as wizard haters?

Quote from: WERDNA on May 17, 2024, 05:58:38 PMIt's funny to me how strong the image of witch trials and magical suppression is with regards to the church. There was a period of witch trials in Syria shortly before the birth of Christ, a magical papyri burning ordered by Augustus Caesar, a pre-Christian expulsion of astrologers, and a number of Imperial laws against magical practices (often associated with "superstitio").

Why aren't the pagan Romans seen as wizard haters?

   Because a lot of the condemnations of witch hunting and inquisitors come out of the creation of the Black Legend (anti-Catholic, anti-Spanish) and the Enlightenment (anti-Christian, pro-Roman).

Greetings!

Yes, very interesting! I love reading my copies of The Malleus Malificarum.

The authors of the famous manual on Witch Hunting, Kramer and Spengler, were definitely interesting men!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

There's enough about the role Christianity played in the social and political development of Europe during the middle ages to earn multiple doctorates.  We are talking about multiple centuries, hundreds of languages, and thousands of prominent personalities and decision makers that all played a part.

I made a very broad general statement based on my knowledge.  I still hold that it's true in the general sense but I see how things could be perceived differently.  People would have rationalized away the inconsistencies rather than taking a hard line by allowing a lot of relabeling and moving on.

I will say that there were five magic areas that were directly condemned by doctrine backed up by Bible passages; summoning, conjuring, divination, speaking with the dead, and curses.  Messing with these would have been a high risk activity anywhere where the more orthodox elements of the church held sway.

In case anyone is interested, I added a small section on street performers and a folk magic ritual (Houkigami Ritual) to my big post on Japanese magic (#35, pg. 3).

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

I grew up around this type of ideology.  I have met and spent time talking with Mike Warnke, Kennith Copland, and Carmen Licciardello.  Not to mention the fact that I've studied some Catholic esoteric theory.  What became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.  (You better believe there are still a lot of people steeped in it.)  Many of the Manuals of Inquisition are pretty easy to understand for me as they look a lot (in spirit if not procedure) like the stuff the Evangelicals put out on the subject.

From a conservative Christian perspective, both now and then, all supernatural happenings are either divine or satanic.  A lot of effort goes into figuring out which one is which.  Miracles are divine supernatural events and magic is the result of occult satanic ritual.   

What nearly anyone practicing magic in the middle ages in Europe would need to do is either a) keep it hidden or b) convince onlookers that it was divine in nature and therefore not occult.

Pundit, you said that a lot of it comes down to how you define magic.  I agree.

Well, I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying here. Holy Men or Saints or preachers would heal and do other things by prayer and faith alone, and they certainly didn't identify themselves as magicians or hermetics or occult philosophers.
But both folk-tradition wise men/women and hermetic magicians, while identifying as Christians, and using christian purification and prayer in their ritual magic, still DID ritual magic. They weren't thinking of what they were doing as just prayer or just "gifts of the holy spirit" or something like that, they understood that what they were doing was a ritual, and that it was part of an ancient tradition.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 17, 2024, 01:19:30 PM

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 17, 2024, 09:35:07 AMYes, it's worth repeating that practically all users of magic (folk or "high") in the Christian medieval world would absolutely identify as Christians, and usually as devout Christians. Prayer, purification and often the recitation of biblical texts were a central part of many medieval magical procedures.

What they would not do is identify what they were doing as magic or themselves as wizards.  They were men of faith sharing the blessings of the Lord.  I know it's all the same to someone viewing it from a Hermetic tradition perspective but it's extremely important to a Christian.

The above is basically the reason why terms like "Natural Philosophy" (and "Natural Magic") arose in the first place. One thing about the Catholic Church; it likes to define things. It creates terms specifically to distinguish things from what might otherwise be lumped together if the differences are spiritually significant (and sometimes even if they aren't).

"That guy over there is a wizard, I'm a natural philosopher."

The term "natural philosophy" was not invented by the Catholic Church. It was in use at least from the time of the ancient greeks.

In fact, the prohibitions that the Church had on certain types of magic ("maleficium", necromancy, etc) were basically THE SAME as the ones that the PAGAN Roman Empire had in most of its history.

The mentality that "all magic is from satan" is something that only really arose around the peak of the witch craze, and coincided not only with the reactionary mentality which produced that but was also coinciding with the reformist movement (which is not to say that only protestants were involved, because there was a reformist movement that led to Protestantism but it was part of a longer reformist movement that had been trying to reform the church for at least a century before Luther and would continue to do so after the protestant reformation). It was part of that combination of iconoclasm, excessive puritanism, and taking the "sola scriptura" concept to a radical extreme.

It's something that has happened in this past century in the Muslim world, where 100 years ago a huge percentage of Muslims were of the mystical Sufi school, and all kinds of philosophical and mystical studies abounded in much of the Muslim world, and today the "purity of Islam" nonsense (and it is nonsense because there never ever was that mythical past they claim they're trying to recover where no one looked to anything at all outside the Koran/Hadith) has all but wiped out Sufism in much of the Muslim world, and instead nearly 50% of muslims are extremist Wahabi/Deobandists.

Quote from: BadApple on May 18, 2024, 12:50:32 AMThere's enough about the role Christianity played in the social and political development of Europe during the middle ages to earn multiple doctorates.  We are talking about multiple centuries, hundreds of languages, and thousands of prominent personalities and decision makers that all played a part.

I made a very broad general statement based on my knowledge.  I still hold that it's true in the general sense but I see how things could be perceived differently.  People would have rationalized away the inconsistencies rather than taking a hard line by allowing a lot of relabeling and moving on.

I will say that there were five magic areas that were directly condemned by doctrine backed up by Bible passages; summoning, conjuring, divination, speaking with the dead, and curses.  Messing with these would have been a high risk activity anywhere where the more orthodox elements of the church held sway.

Agreed. Note what they all have in common though... all call upon something supernatural through means of ritual; either for information, bargaining, or compelling service (divination isn't the same as astrology... the latter is passively observing the heavens in search of patterns, the former is performing rituals to seek information from spirits).

The Church's position against those practices was to protect people from acts that would expose them to demonic temptation, oppression or possession.

The Epistles even laid out a process for testing visions or apparitions that weren't called for and said to not trust spirits claiming to be angels or saints without performing those tests (chief among them is whether or not it's message in any way contradicted the gospel message and to consult with others before putting faith in such a thing) because demons are angels and can appear as saints or the dead and are free to lie and deceive in the process.

Mucking about with chemicals derived from minerals, plants and animals, even if those results can be explosive, won't damn your soul (alchemy always sat right on the border of acceptable precisely because one of the ends that could be pursued was mucking about with one's soul and summoning spirits as part of the procedures).

Quote from: WERDNA on May 17, 2024, 05:58:38 PM

Quote from: BadApple on May 17, 2024, 11:57:35 AMWhat became the inquisition comes from a lot of the same energy that caused the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s.

By this are you referring to the Witch trials? I'd associate the creation of the inquisition more with the increase of influence held by the Cathars.

It's funny to me how strong the image of witch trials and magical suppression is with regards to the Church. There was a period of witch trials in Syria shortly before the birth of Christ, a magical papyri burning ordered by Augustus Caesar, a pre-Christian expulsion of astrologers, and a number of Imperial laws against magical practices (often associated with "superstitio").

Why aren't the pagan Romans seen as wizard haters?

You're largely correct. The Inquisition itself had very little to do with the Witch Craze. The people involved in that were mostly secular authorities of both Catholic and Protestant areas who were egged on by radical preachers.
It wasn't in any way the Inquisition's job to hunt down witches or anything like that, they were tasked with uncovering heretics and apostates who taught ideas that were in opposition to the doctrines of faith.

And yes, the Romans did all those things, and as I just said in my previous post, pretty much all the things they Romans routinely outlawed were the same things that the Catholic Church later outlawed, while the things they tolerated were things that were also tolerated by the Catholic Church. There were some particular exceptions of brief persecutions of certain practices by specific Emperors, but the consistent prohibitions were pretty much the same.
And the motives were pretty much the same: curses and magical poisoners that made pacts with dark powers (ie witches) were seen as a menace in almost every culture, foreign teachings drew people away from the state religion (which in Rome was also the Cult of the Emperor), astrology was dangerous if it was used for political propaganda, and charlatans and frauds feigning magical powers were bad for the economy.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 18, 2024, 08:51:07 AMWell, I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you're saying here. Holy Men or Saints or preachers would heal and do other things by prayer and faith alone, and they certainly didn't identify themselves as magicians or hermetics or occult philosophers.
But both folk-tradition wise men/women and hermetic magicians, while identifying as Christians, and using christian purification and prayer in their ritual magic, still DID ritual magic. They weren't thinking of what they were doing as just prayer or just "gifts of the holy spirit" or something like that, they understood that what they were doing was a ritual, and that it was part of an ancient tradition.

Wow, ok.  This one came as a bit of a shock to me.

It's not a question of doing or not doing the rituals, it's a matter of context.  I think the best way to explain it is by describing what I have seen and experienced of modern Christian ritual practice and the mindset of the practitioners. 

Yes, there are both clergy and lay members in Christian faiths that engage in mystic ritual.  Indeed, many of the rituals I have seen and participated in are fairly similar to some of the rituals you describe in The Invisible College.

The Seven Sacraments are the cornerstone of Catholic beliefs and are absolutely mystic ritual.  Eucharist, for instance, is held that during the ceremony the wafers and wine become part of the body of Christ in a literal sense.  I have never met a priest that would have been ok with you calling the sacraments magic.

This holds for rituals of some of the Protestant denominations as well.  If you were there and called it magic you'd get a rather strong reaction and possibly some violence.  From their viewpoint, Hermetic ritual is a bastardization of sacred rites.

Based on reading I've done, I don't think this view is new.  There is plenty of evidence that many of the rituals are very old and predate Christianity.  (I think some predate any known language.)  It's also not unusual for Christianity to absorb rituals and tweak them to fit doctrine.  The Christian argument is that when done in proper context, it's a form of worship and submission to God whereas magic is done to to enrich and empower one's self.  The first is holy and the second is blasphemy.

You mentioned Albertus Magnus.  From a conservative Catholic viewpoint, he wasn't a mage but a holy man redeeming holy rituals and practices and restoring them to their rightful place under God's grace.

If you see this as nothing more than an argument of semantics, I sympathize.  If you don't see the distinction between holy rites and magic ritual, join the club.  There's a lot of internal hostility in Christendom over this issue.  A lot of death and violence has occurred precisely over the argument of where the line between the two is.

One thing that might help in the whole "magic" department is to remember that language is not a constant thing.

The modern sense of the word "magic" only goes back to the 14th Century. Prior to that magikos referred mainly to the acts of various priestly classes (see the Biblical Three Magi... who were priests from the East).

In period there would be terms like Wiccacraeft (witchcraft) and Drycraeft (Dry was derived from the Irish Drui... from which the modern term Druid came) along with Sorcier (later Sorcerer, but derived from "caster of lots" and in terms of seeing the roots... say it as sorSEER) all referring to what we're lumping under "magic."

Basically... if you want this discussion to make more sense, replace every instance of "magic" with "supernatural" and "magician" with a wide array of terms (priest, wiseman/woman for legitimate ones and wicce, dry, sorcier etc. for illegitimate ones).

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 18, 2024, 03:32:47 PMOne thing that might help in the whole "magic" department is to remember that language is not a constant thing.

The modern sense of the word "magic" only goes back to the 14th Century. Prior to that magikos referred mainly to the acts of various priestly classes (see the Biblical Three Magi... who were priests from the East).

In period there would be terms like Wiccacraeft (witchcraft) and Drycraeft (Dry was derived from the Irish Drui... from which the modern term Druid came) along with Sorcier (later Sorcerer, but derived from "caster of lots" and in terms of seeing the roots... say it as sorSEER) all referring to what we're lumping under "magic."

Basically... if you want this discussion to make more sense, replace every instance of "magic" with "supernatural" and "magician" with a wide array of terms (priest, wiseman/woman for legitimate ones and wicce, dry, sorcier etc. for illegitimate ones).

The term I have most often heard used is sorcery. This is as old as the hills.  It's also the modern umbrella term used by many Christian denominations for anything supernatural that isn't directly from God.

In the New Testament, the story of Simon is often used as a cornerstone of understanding the relationship between Christianity and the use of supernatural powers.

QuoteActs 8:9-25

9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which before time in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

How this is interpreted will be based on the denomination.  Most do agree that this is a story that show that it's a sin to engage in any form of sorcery and you should only rely on the power of God.

Then there is the discussion of the Holy Ghost which leads down another avenue of inquiry that will get your head spinning...

As far as the three Magi, I have seen a lot of arguments and theories as to who they were and where they came from.  I believe they were Zoroaster priests from Parthia but that's just a guess based on my reading.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 10:21:45 PMThe answer to this depends on how one defines magicians. For all of the middle ages, most peasant villages had some kind of wise man or cunning woman, who did folk magic. They were generally valued by the people; and contrary to the claims of some modern wiccans or whatever, they absolutely considered themselves to be Christians (at least after the very earliest part of the middle ages).

Complicating this is the fact that modern Wiccans are rather prone to making false and rather outlandish claims about witches and witchcraft in the Middle Ages.  One of them is buried in the phrase modern Wiccans.  This implies that there was such a thing as ancient Wiccans.  This fits in with the claims made by some Wiccans that Wicca is the survival of some Pre-Christian European tradition.  This is simply false.  All Wiccans are modern Wiccans.  Wicca is a modern practice invented in the 1950s by a guy named Gerald Gardner aka Scire.  The ancient coven that supposedly inducted him was pure fabrication.  He made it all up.  There are some rather outlandish claims about the persecution of witches by the Church in the Middle Ages too.  People talk about "The Burning Times" when millions of witches were supposedly burned by the Catholic Church.  Supposedly, so many witches were burned that the smoke blackened the sky.  This claim is, of course, absurd.  Some Wiccan authors, like Scott Cunningham, are honest about the origins of Wicca while others still promote these falsehoods. 

Then again, there are people who still promote Margaret Murray's work as if it had any validity at all.

Perhaps to make it clearer, I was specifically trying to address the question of "didn't priests work magic too?"

The answer is best understood if you know that the word "magic" in its modern extremely broad definition didn't exist back then ("magic" didn't even get associated with sleight of hand/legardimain performances until the 18th Century and only became an umbrella term for "use of supernatural forces" during the Renaissance.

The modern sense of "magic" tends to distinguish the source of the supernatural power. If its God or science then it's not magic. So the priest doesn't work magic, he's performing miracles. The village wise men/women used proto-science (which back in the day was seen as supernatural in that it relied on principles and forces not fully understood).

In a way it was kinda like the Eskimos and their "17 words for snow." Because it was seen to be everywhere, the people back then had many different terms for different types of what we'd just dump under the header of "supernatural/magic."

The easiest way in modern language for me to distinguish it is "yeah, everyone was using supernatural forces, but not everyone was using the forbidden supernatural forces."

Priests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

=8|  Holy what?

For all that is good, never have this conversation with your devoted aunt.  You will give her a stroke.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

=8|  Holy what?

For all that is good, never have this conversation with your devoted aunt.  You will give her a stroke.

Quote from: BadApple on May 19, 2024, 12:53:04 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 19, 2024, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 09:28:09 AMPriests or holy men don't actually perform miracles.  They pray for intercession.  If a miracle is performed, it's by God. 

Fair. It's what I get for using broad shorthand.

Technically, the sorcerer isn't doing the magic either. It's whatever spirit they're calling upon that is acting.

The point stands that the modern distinction between the Catholic priest ritually performing the Eucharistic blessing (miracle) and a Sorcerer calling on a spirit (magic) is which supernatural entity they're seeking the aid from.

=8|  Holy what?

For all that is good, never have this conversation with your devoted aunt.  You will give her a stroke.

I have had this conversation with my devoted aunt and mother. We're all faithful Catholics.

This perspective isn't anything radical for Catholics. We believe Satan is real and he and his demons prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. A demon is just an angel that broke faith with God and so retain all the abilities natural to angels. They are not (yet) confined to Hell but remain free in the world. We believe in Demonic oppression and possession and that our bishops and priests have been granted authority by God to cast out the fallen angels and perform other signs and wonders as needed to fulfill God's plan.

We declare the reality of supernatural powers at work in the world every time we recite our Creed and say we believe in "all things visible and invisible." We believe that there is a spiritual war going on in the invisible world for the souls of Men.

We call upon God because we can be sure of His intentions (because He entered the world, taught us, and then died as payment for our transgressions against Him because of His love for His creations) and so can be sure that calling upon Him for aid is safe for us spiritually and can even cast out any and all evil spirits.

We do NOT know for certain the intention of any other spirit and that many seek to lead us into eternal damnation, which is why interacting with them, except by trained experts (i.e. exorcists), is forbidden and even apparitions claiming to be angels or saints are studied for years before they're either declared invalid or "worthy of belief" (note - not REQUIRED for belief).

As relates to the subject at hand, this isn't that far off from the understanding of Medieval Catholics about "magic." There isn't a hard divide between "natural" and "supernatural" because all of it was created by God. Smiths knew secrets (arcane and occult both essentially mean little known/secret) they wove into the items they created; the sword of a master smith had properties beyond what was understood to be natural at the time.

What mattered at the time (and is still the basis for Catholic understanding of Charisms and other spiritual gifts) is using the gifts given by God for the good and to avoid instances of sin which hostile spirits (that can disguise themselves as benign ones) will seek to lead us into, and we leave ourselves particularly open to that when we deliberately call upon those other spirits.

It may seem shocking to the Protestants, but to devout Catholics the Medieval mindset on the supernatural and spirits; miracles and magic; isn't all that alien to us.

Chris

Well said.

I started a Sunday school lesson today for my adult class that covers that exactly. I' Baptist, so some of our beliefs may be a little different, but the core of it is the same.

We may not see or understand 'the spiritual world/war' but it is there and we are dead center of it.

Now place that back in time 500+ years, with less knowledge in the science side of the house, and significantly more belief in spirit side, plus, as CS Lewis points out 'the fact that the under command of the fallen angels allowed mages to actively be made' and you have a view that yes priest cause miracles from God with their prayers, village wise men/women know the tricks to chase off ilf sickness for your cow (and other special little secrets some form the good side, some may be from the bad side so be careful) and some fall to the fallen side even if at first the spirit seems good, but it leads those that follow it astray.

I have mentioned before that in some stories Oni possess the magical art of creating new life out of mixed human remains. A 13th century Japanese text expands on this idea giving a process which could be learned from the Oni (but still requires their cooperation):

Take assorted human remains and organize them into a complete human form or at least a complete skeleton. Paint the bones with arsenic, then sprinkle crumbled hebiichigo over them, then sprinkle leaves of chickweed over them. Tie the bones together with threads and vines and wash them many times with water. Rub upon the skull, in the region from which hair grows, ash from burnt leaves of saikai (saikachi) and Hibiscus. Keep the body protected from the wind and rain and wait for a period of fourteen days or more. Before beginning the next part of the operation the caster must have fasted and remained pure for seven days. Burn musk and milk in veneration of the Oni and miscellaneous daemons before performing the Secret Rite of Soul Recalling (a multi-purpose necromantic ritual jealously guarded by certain Tendai, Shingon, and Onmyo lineages).

If all goes well the caster will have created a perfect simulacra of a human being with unique features inherited from the remains used. If all doesn't go well the ritual may fail or create a sickly person trapped in a vegetative state though they may be able to moan or make meaningless utterances. It should be noted that humans created with this spell, while intelligent, have no soul and are incredibly fragile. The creature must be treated gently and taken good care of lest they break and return to their constituent elements; however, if 100 days pass without incident ensoulment will occur and they shall be true humans.

It is worth noting that humans performing this art can gain the notice of gods or spirits of the underworld who will be angered by this behavior. It is possible that one may get off with a warning on a first offense, but a curse (perhaps a deadly one) is likely. Also worth noting is that there are tales of Oni using this practice in a partial form to restore severed limbs or other body parts. For example, an Oni tears off the arms of a monk and shortly thereafter another Oni to whom the monk once showed compassion passes by. This Oni creates and attaches new arms for the monk created from the remains of the dead.

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 19, 2024, 08:33:57 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 16, 2024, 10:21:45 PMThe answer to this depends on how one defines magicians. For all of the middle ages, most peasant villages had some kind of wise man or cunning woman, who did folk magic. They were generally valued by the people; and contrary to the claims of some modern wiccans or whatever, they absolutely considered themselves to be Christians (at least after the very earliest part of the middle ages).

Complicating this is the fact that modern Wiccans are rather prone to making false and rather outlandish claims about witches and witchcraft in the Middle Ages.  One of them is buried in the phrase modern Wiccans.  This implies that there was such a thing as ancient Wiccans.  This fits in with the claims made by some Wiccans that Wicca is the survival of some Pre-Christian European tradition.  This is simply false.  All Wiccans are modern Wiccans.  Wicca is a modern practice invented in the 1950s by a guy named Gerald Gardner aka Scire.  The ancient coven that supposedly inducted him was pure fabrication.  He made it all up.  There are some rather outlandish claims about the persecution of witches by the Church in the Middle Ages too.  People talk about "The Burning Times" when millions of witches were supposedly burned by the Catholic Church.  Supposedly, so many witches were burned that the smoke blackened the sky.  This claim is, of course, absurd.  Some Wiccan authors, like Scott Cunningham, are honest about the origins of Wicca while others still promote these falsehoods. 

Then again, there are people who still promote Margaret Murray's work as if it had any validity at all.

As demonstrated by European fairy-tales, witches were originally not conceived to be human at all, but cannibalistic monsters/demons who looked like elderly women. "Witch" and "hag" were thus synonymous.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 13, 2024, 11:21:44 PMAs it turns out my article on the four terrible creatures isn't going to be going into the Pundit Files after all, it will be in the next issue of Mad Scribe Magazine.

I assume you mean issue #6 and not #5?