It's a subtle distinction to make, but I think D&D and many "traditional" games don't present a case that "existence and life are meaningless"; rather they're neutral on whether there's any meaning. I could imagine a game that positively reinforced the idea of meaninglesses, which is what I would call "nihilistic." By that definition, D&D isn't nihilistic.

Quote from: Zak S;979272Neither of those products are very thorough about enforcing that morality.

I didn't know it was about thoroughness now, but let's agree to disagree then, as this topic doesn't need any more distractions. I'm more interested in your product's module approach.

Quote from: Zak S;979272All the play reports about functionality have been basically ecstatic (google "actual play""blue medusa" there's blogs and at least one podcast, plus youtube vids), people like that stuff is repeated so they don't have to flip pages, they like that things are summarized then expanded, that all the creatures are summarized again in the back, and we use all the Vornheim tricks like not letting things spill from one spread to the next, etc.

Book beats pdf though, unfortunately as the book is now out of print and 100some$ on ebay.

My personal criticism is that, functionalitywise, some of the room descriptions are too long because Patrick had written some great stuff and I didn't want to cut it down (though I often rewrote stuff I didn't like). The Red & Pleasant Land format...

-Short Stuff
-With Bullet Points
-If the players do this statements like this in a separate bullet
-If the players do this other thing in another bullet point
-Then Stats

...is my ideal. But there's no point in co-writing with Patrick Stuart if you're not going to let the prose breathe. We did our best.

You'd be right to argue the pictures don't always tell you a lot about the rooms they're in, but on the other hand point to another 300 room dungeon with a picture for every room, and directly on the map.  If 1 out of 10 help you remember "oh THAT room" without having to reread the description then they did more than the pictures for any other megadungeon.

Thanks!

Did you get around to Regional Room Clusters setting a baseline connective description (a la Metroidvania regions, "The Kitchens," "The Clock Tower,") so as to save space for Specific Room features?

And were the rooms more Vornheim artistic visual snippets (in various perspectives, iirc) than architectural dimensions, which it sounds like, or a mixture of both? Basically, were you able to include more spatial content for such dependent GMs? (I'm not one, I actually loved your room's artistic visual snippets -- very Theater of the Mind supportive.)

And I know before you talked about the imperative of keying things directly onto the map, so as to avoid page flipping for reference. What text data did you prioritize, what was sacrificed, and what was compromised (like into an icon or part of room artwork)?

I want to take a look at it soon. Bryce of Tenfootpole found Patrick's prose splendid, evocative yet terse, in Deep Carbon Observatory. His excerpts were good, so I better understand your editorial pain.

If you had to hammer home Basic Best Practices module format lessons from your experience so far, what would be the primary five to ten goals?

ZakS, thank you for the breakdown.

Quote from: Zak S;979596I am currently working on a Patreon-funded crime/horror game built from scratch called Demon City:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2017/03/demon-city.html

Are the PCs normal humans, enhanced humans or monsters themselves?

Quote from: Zak S;979596...and my most recent project for LotFP is in layout, and will probably be out before that, a wilderness crawl and wilderness-crawl kit titled either Black Metal Amazons of the Devoured Land or maybe just Frostbitten and Mutilated:

Previews:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2015/03/amazons-of-devoured-land.html

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2017/02/paintings-black-metal-amazons-of.html

Excellent! I read the Devoured Land post years ago and hoped you'd develop it into a setting book. The Lychewives are fucked up scary.

QuoteDid you get around to Regional Room Clusters setting a baseline connective description (a la Metroidvania regions, "The Kitchens," "The Clock Tower,") so as to save space for Specific Room features?

Yes, but I actually think this could've been done slightly better because it's easy to slip between sections while exploring and it's annoying to have to reference the beginning of a section in order to see what else you're missing (the color coded page edges help tho). It's not a huge problem bc there's not that much meta-info, but next time it's a place to find a more user-friendly solution.

QuoteAnd were the rooms more Vornheim artistic visual snippets (in various perspectives, iirc) than architectural dimensions, which it sounds like, or a mixture of both? Basically, were you able to include more spatial content for such dependent GMs? (I'm not one, I actually loved your room's artistic visual snippets -- very Theater of the Mind supportive.)

Both Vornheim and Maze have accurate length & width dimensions drawn, it's just that instead of a bunch of squares inside the room or a bird's eye view, the room has a picture of what's in it inside.

QuoteAnd I know before you talked about the imperative of keying things directly onto the map, so as to avoid page flipping for reference. What text data did you prioritize, what was sacrificed, and what was compromised (like into an icon or part of room artwork)?

I wrote a description on the map that generalized but fit, so GM's knew which rooms would be more complex to prepare. So "Trap", "Sculpture", "Trappish sculpture", "Caged Fairy" etc.

QuoteIf you had to hammer home Basic Best Practices module format lessons from your experience so far, what would be the primary five to ten goals?

Same as the big dungeons in Red & Pleasant:

-Bullet point descriptions
-Use mini excerpts of the maps on the page with the descriptions for each
-Never let a room description spill past one spread
-Put the name of the room on the goddamn map
-Write "If the PCs..." statements as separate paragraphs so GMs can skip them if PCs don't do that
-Use color to make things clearer

Quote from: Spinachcat;979695ZakS, thank you for the breakdown.

Are the PCs normal humans, enhanced humans or monsters themselves?

They're normal humans (like True Detective) EXCEPT--one PC per group can opt to be the "problem"--that is, someone who is developing horror-movie style powers. The details are in the links under character generation.

QuoteExcellent! I read the Devoured Land post years ago and hoped you'd develop it into a setting book. The Lychewives are fucked up scary.

Well, they're on their way.

Quote from: Zak S;979703-Bullet point descriptions
-Use mini excerpts of the maps on the page with the descriptions for each
-Never let a room description spill past one spread
-Put the name of the room on the goddamn map
-Write "If the PCs..." statements as separate paragraphs so GMs can skip them if PCs don't do that
-Use color to make things clearer

IE: it's a reference work for the DM to run the game. So many folks just don't get that.

Hurdle 1: is the adventure actually a reference work to help me run the game?
Hurdle 2: is the stuff in it actually any good?

If those two criteria had separate score, Blue Medusa would be near the top in both categories, with most adventures failing miserably at even hurdle one. It's the combination of reference work and good stuff in it that justifies its praise.


Time to start digging in to GenCon to see whose gonna be there this year.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;979721IE: it's a reference work for the DM to run the game. So many folks just don't get that.

I agree. These days, I run a dozen+ games a year at conventions. When I'm standing in front of ten people who paid to be there and look down for a reminder of what's in a room, I don't want to labor through 12 sentences of bad fiction (usually useless trivia) followed by an ""Oh, also, there's a monster here." Ideally, the map itself has something to jog my memory (word, picture) and then the text lists first anything in the room that's immediately important to the PCs - strange creatures doing X, the obvious clue to a deadly trap, etc. If there are some important details that connect to the broader scenario, but are not immediate to resolving the party's entrance to the room, for the love of god, put that last. I also don't need lists of mundane items particular to a generic room type (kitchen, bunk room, etc). I can make that shit up in a millisecond.

Quote from: Voros;979650I think Zak's point seems simple enough. There's nothing in D&D's mechanics or system that enforces a moral viewpoint and so the system could be considered 'nihilistic.'

Unfortunately Nihilistic as an adjective states that it is belief system. One that rejects religious or moral principles. In contrast Nihilism as a philosophical concept has multiple facets including one Zak has been accurately point to Asen. If was me I would avoid the use use of Nihilistic and Nihilism in this content and just use the exact definition even though it longer to write out.

My view is that D&D isn't about any religious or moral view point. If there is one it is because the referee and/or player baked it into their campaign. The game itself just describes elements one could use in a fantasy campaign using it rules. Even the those RPGs that adopt a specific viewpoint (like the Christian RPGs of the 80s) can't get away from this. All they do is make it more work for the referee to other things with that particular game.

The reason they can't away from this Dave Arneson's discovery that playing a individual character in a campaign that focuses on that turned the whole exercise from something where you are trying to beat an opponent or achieve some victory condition into something more. Turned it into something that is more about the experience of being X and doing Y. And experiences are in of themselves morally neutral it is the people involved that infuses it with any sense (or lack of) of morality. RPGs are a toolkit for a referee to craft something for his players to experience.

The only way to escape this aspect of RPG is to turn it into a completely different game. Which often reverts it back to being a form of wargame where you are trying to achieve victory conditions in this case whatever moral principle the designer has baked into the rules.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;979721IE: it's a reference work for the DM to run the game. So many folks just don't get that.

Hurdle 1: is the adventure actually a reference work to help me run the game?
Hurdle 2: is the stuff in it actually any good?

If those two criteria had separate score, Blue Medusa would be near the top in both categories, with most adventures failing miserably at even hurdle one. It's the combination of reference work and good stuff in it that justifies its praise.

Yup, which is why Zak's work deserves the praise it gets and is worth looking at even if the type of adventure it depicts is not to one's taste. I followed my own ideas in this regard with Scourge of the Demon Wolf and it is the main reason why I segregated into two sections. One focused solely on the adventure and the other a supplement to make the book useful beyond the initial adventure.

BTW MoftBM is just $5 in pdf so if you're wondering about it just take a look.

Quote from: Voros;979875BTW MoftBM is just $5 in pdf so if you're wondering about it just take a look.

I recommend double-page view while DMing if you do use it, and print out the spreads on the "endpapers".

Thanks for replying!

Quote from: Zak S;979703Yes, but I actually think this could've been done slightly better because it's easy to slip between sections while exploring and it's annoying to have to reference the beginning of a section in order to see what else you're missing (the color coded page edges help tho). It's not a huge problem bc there's not that much meta-info, but next time it's a place to find a more user-friendly solution.

I like the color-coded pages (but I have a comment on that later). What about 'transitional areas', like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night using 'loading hallway' areas or a 'connecting secret passage' distinct from both regions? I already hear it in my head as a touch meta-, and it might cause headache to have unassociated rooms, but it's been a past video game solution. I know, crossing media doesn't always translate well, yet as an experiment?

Quote from: Zak S;979703I wrote a description on the map that generalized but fit, so GM's knew which rooms would be more complex to prepare. So "Trap", "Sculpture", "Trappish sculpture", "Caged Fairy" etc.

This'll be associated to my color comment: how "aging eyes" friendly do you work? There's condensing information, but as you allude more complex rooms would activate more tags. I'm assuming font limit of 10? At what point do you avoid it overlapping into the art? Do you find switching font colors accordingly necessary so as the Room Tags stick out?

Basically, what sort of tension is there between on-map room tagging and accessibility?

Quote from: Zak S;979703Same as the big dungeons in Red & Pleasant:

-Bullet point descriptions
-Use mini excerpts of the maps on the page with the descriptions for each
-Never let a room description spill past one spread
-Put the name of the room on the goddamn map
-Write "If the PCs..." statements as separate paragraphs so GMs can skip them if PCs don't do that
-Use color to make things clearer

I dig bulleted If/then statements for room triggers. When you mini-map-excerpt I assume you naturally remove room tagged text within its image, yes.

"Never let a room description spill past one spread," that means spill-over a page? Now do you find it better to write out and image the product first, then return to spill-over spreads and condense, or try line count limits per described room? I'd imagine the former as you say it is better to let the prose breathe.

And to color, again the accessibility issue. As an artist with an eye to referenceable work, what sort of considerations do you make for the color-blind? Anything that people tend to overlook that you found as an obvious solution from your art instruction? (e.g. don't pair yellow-purples, red-greens, etc. when tagging color references, etc.)

Quote from: Opaopajr;979891What about 'transitional areas', like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night using 'loading hallway' areas or a 'connecting secret passage' distinct from both regions? I already hear it in my head as a touch meta-, and it might cause headache to have unassociated rooms, but it's been a past video game solution. I know, crossing media doesn't always translate well, yet as an experiment?

That doesn't seem to in any way address the graphic design problem.

The rooms are gonna be laid out the way they're laid out. Creating chokepoints just to make the transition between sections clear only makes sense in certain kinds of dungeons and this isn't one of them. The next one? It will have all new problems after it is thought up.

QuoteThis'll be associated to my color comment: how "aging eyes" friendly do you work?

Not very. I make things as convenient as possible for me personally and assume somewhere there's other people who want what I want and if they feel like buying it, great. I do assume old people can zoom in on the pdf.

QuoteI'm assuming font limit of 10?

nope

QuoteAt what point do you avoid it overlapping into the art?

never think about it

QuoteDo you find switching font colors accordingly necessary so as the Room Tags stick out?

Depends on the product.

QuoteBasically, what sort of tension is there between on-map room tagging and accessibility?

None. To me on-map tagging is accessibility.

QuoteI dig bulleted If/then statements for room triggers. When you mini-map-excerpt I assume you naturally remove room tagged text within its image, yes.

I don't know what that means. It might be easier just to look at a preview.

Quote"Never let a room description spill past one spread," that means spill-over a page?

No, a spread--a spread is 2 facing pages.

QuoteNow do you find it better to write out and image the product first, then return to spill-over spreads and condense, or try line count limits per described room?

You almost never have to rewrite a room description to fit on a spread--spreads are huge. The only time a room description could go past a spread is the information design or graphic design is lazy. If it came to it, though, I would re-word after the fact.

QuoteAnd to color, again the accessibility issue. As an artist with an eye to referenceable work, what sort of considerations do you make for the color-blind? Anything that people tend to overlook that you found as an obvious solution from your art instruction? (e.g. don't pair yellow-purples, red-greens, etc. when tagging color references, etc.)

None at all. As I said: the primary audience is me. I have no objection to other people making it more accessible (like the graphic designer or publisher), but if it's at the expense of something that makes it useful to me I don't do it.

Quote from: Zak S;979624Irrelevant.

We're not talking about whether lessons can be drawn from D&D. We are addressing whether D&D is by nature intent on teaching them.

If they're part of the system, as you claim, then yes - I'd say it's intent on teaching them. Systems are one of the most analyzed parts of any game.
Opinions on the intent can, however, differ.

QuoteIf you draw lessons that weren't explicit then it is you who are locating the moral, not D&D presenting it--that is, the game isn't moralizing, you are attempting to learn from experience.

Of course I am, who doesn't?
Then again, the game is, to me, comprised of not only system, but also a setting, and specific characters.
And even within the system of D&D, there's a number of mechanics which almost scream "things have meaning".
Like, unless I'm mistaken, four of the "first" core classes had alignment restrictions (Paladin, Druid, Ranger, Cleric - though I admit I'm not sure if the Ranger was Good before 2e, and the Cleric had more of a behavioural restriction to "do what pleases thy deity" that maybe many GMs had neglected). An obvious conclusion might be that following a particular philosophy makes you more powerful.

QuoteAn earthquake is not moralizing--but you can learn from it.

Before you move the goalposts again, I need to know if you grasp the logic of this.

Please answer before I continue.

That logic is something that I pointed out in my previous post. Do you really expect me to disagree:)?

Your mistake, however, is in assuming that the lack of a "divine hand acknowledging a particular philosophy" is to be taken as "your philosophy is assumed to not matter". It, putting it simply, doesn't follow.

QuoteIf you aren't able to grasp this or at least address it, then you aren't intelligent enough to have a conversation with and I will stop talking to you.

Whaddayamean?
Also, if you plan to continue, I'd urge you to start a separate thread - something like "the morality of D&D".

Quote from: estar;979733Unfortunately Nihilistic as an adjective states that it is belief system. One that rejects religious or moral principles.

Yes. The absence of explicit beliefs isn't nihilism;).
Hence my question from the start of the thread, which was "ince when does D&D come pre-packaged with a philosophy?"

Quote from: AsenRG;979954Opinions on the intent can, however, differ.

Only what can be proven matters.

QuoteAnd even within the system of D&D, there's a number of mechanics which almost scream "things have meaning".
Like, unless I'm mistaken, four of the "first" core classes had alignment restrictions (Paladin, Druid, Ranger, Cleric - though I admit I'm not sure if the Ranger was Good before 2e, and the Cleric had more of a behavioural restriction to "do what pleases thy deity" that maybe many GMs had neglected). An obvious conclusion might be that following a particular philosophy makes you more powerful.

So if 2 PCs follow different mutually-exclusive philosophies, which philosophy is D&D "teaching"?

Quote from: Zak S;979958Only what can be proven matters.

So, pretty much nothing matters, at least when it comes to D&D:).

QuoteSo if 2 PCs follow different mutually-exclusive philosophies, which philosophy is D&D "teaching"?

That having a philosophy is more important than what exactly it is;). Call it "the power of will", if you want a fancy name.

P.S.: Indeed, one can speculate that this is what separates PCs from the guys in the Monster Manual, which don't have PC classes, for the most part. A PC is always striving to achieve something, whether this "something" is the PC getting richer, or the PC proving his philosophy by deeds and force of arms.
But if we accept the Fighting Man as the paragon of the "getting richer", and the Paladin as the paragon of "imposing your philosophy", it's obvious which one gets additional powers for following his goals.