Quote from: Cam Banks;696615All in all, I think we did a pretty good job given the sheer number of constraints the license imposed upon us. If you're wondering why the book never mentions creating your own original characters, or why the product line didn't include handbooks for the Avengers or handbooks for the X-Men or handbooks for gerar and equipment, that'd be why.

I think even at the time it was fairly obvious the system was strangled to death by its trademark owners.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Cam Banks;696615MHR was the super hero RPG I wanted to play. I suppose that's why I designed it the way I did. I've played all of the earlier Marvel licensed RPGs - spent several years running a MSH game in college, for example - and they all influenced MHR in one way or another.

It clearly wasn't the game everybody wanted, but I know it was the game a lot of people loved - I got a substantial amount of positive responses from it, many of which came from kids and women and newcomers to the hobby who appreciated how it worked and how it captured the flavor of comics. I think the bulk of the negative responses came from folks who had been playing traditional RPGs for a long time. But not all.

All in all, I think we did a pretty good job given the sheer number of constraints the license imposed upon us. If you're wondering why the book never mentions creating your own original characters, or why the product line didn't include handbooks for the Avengers or handbooks for the X-Men or handbooks for gerar and equipment, that'd be why.

Cheers,
Cam

That does explain why no rules for custom characters. Someone really thought that was a good idea? Must have been rough with constraints like that.

Quote from: Cam Banks;696615MHR was the super hero RPG I wanted to play. I suppose that's why I designed it the way I did. I've played all of the earlier Marvel licensed RPGs - spent several years running a MSH game in college, for example - and they all influenced MHR in one way or another.

It clearly wasn't the game everybody wanted, but I know it was the game a lot of people loved - I got a substantial amount of positive responses from it, many of which came from kids and women and newcomers to the hobby who appreciated how it worked and how it captured the flavor of comics. I think the bulk of the negative responses came from folks who had been playing traditional RPGs for a long time. But not all.

All in all, I think we did a pretty good job given the sheer number of constraints the license imposed upon us. If you're wondering why the book never mentions creating your own original characters, or why the product line didn't include handbooks for the Avengers or handbooks for the X-Men or handbooks for gerar and equipment, that'd be why.

Cheers,
Cam

While I understand licensing issues, I think one of the main problems was Cortex system itself. I have never played a game system before that literally makes me angry playing it... The core dicing mechanic is just horrid. Not only is it frustrating, but it pulls you completely out of the game and breaks immersion unlike any other game system I have ever played.

It makes me sad, cause you guys get a lot of cool licensed products I would love to buy... Just with them being saddled with Cortex,  I never will...

I kind of agree about the cortex system in that it's a like or loathe thing. Chuck a bunch of dice and choose the best ones, doesn't matter where they came from. It's good in that characters aren't one trick ponies - they may be the greatest at whatever but sometimes their fear of failure D8 saves their ass or whatever, but on the flip side as an old fart I can't help but wonder how strong, smart, tough, strong willed a character is, in other words I like traditional stats.

I will watch out for a license free version of the game though, and hope it will be easier for us older types to pick up. The writing in the core marvel book had me flicking back and forth when trying to pick it up.

Quote from: Cam Banks;696615All in all, I think we did a pretty good job given the sheer number of constraints the license imposed upon us. If you're wondering why the book never mentions creating your own original characters, or why the product line didn't include handbooks for the Avengers or handbooks for the X-Men or handbooks for gerar and equipment, that'd be why.

Any chance of seeing a IP-free version of the system, refined and revisited without those constraints?  I'd love to see a variant of it that went through another round of critical editing, and allowed to really stretch its wings!

Quote from: APN;696670I kind of agree about the cortex system in that it's a like or loathe thing. Chuck a bunch of dice and choose the best ones, doesn't matter where they came from. It's good in that characters aren't one trick ponies - they may be the greatest at whatever but sometimes their fear of failure D8 saves their ass or whatever, but on the flip side as an old fart I can't help but wonder how strong, smart, tough, strong willed a character is, in other words I like traditional stats.

I will watch out for a license free version of the game though, and hope it will be easier for us older types to pick up. The writing in the core marvel book had me flicking back and forth when trying to pick it up.

I'm not incredible familiar with Cortex. But the impression I get is that it works like this: Build a dice pool based on your characters traits (which are rated by dice). Roll that pool and create a narrative for action based the results (succeed or fail) and the dice used to build the pool. Is that close?

Quote from: Cam Banks;696615MHR was the super hero RPG I wanted to play. I suppose that's why I designed it the way I did. I've played all of the earlier Marvel licensed RPGs - spent several years running a MSH game in college, for example - and they all influenced MHR in one way or another.

It clearly wasn't the game everybody wanted, but I know it was the game a lot of people loved - I got a substantial amount of positive responses from it, many of which came from kids and women and newcomers to the hobby who appreciated how it worked and how it captured the flavor of comics. I think the bulk of the negative responses came from folks who had been playing traditional RPGs for a long time. But not all.

Well you got way further than most, so congratulations on that, and people should only ever write games they want to play. And yeah, it wasn't the type of frame I enjoy, but it was well written and comprehensive within its own goals.

QuoteAll in all, I think we did a pretty good job given the sheer number of constraints the license imposed upon us. If you're wondering why the book never mentions creating your own original characters, or why the product line didn't include handbooks for the Avengers or handbooks for the X-Men or handbooks for gerar and equipment, that'd be why.

Cheers,
Cam

Yeah, I heard they initially tried to put the same constraints on the original MSH RPG, which is why the authors snuck the çhargen into the appendix in the first release. Honestly, you should have fought them on those points. Its like Hollywood, creative directors have to fight tooth and nail with executive meddling. The suits should never be telling the talent thierbusiness.

Quote from: Panjumanju;696621I think even at the time it was fairly obvious the system was strangled to death by its trademark owners.

//Panjumanju

Which is the usual problem with licensed games.

JG

Having done now three games based on licenses... Yeah. It is a total bitch.
First book: Went fairly well for five years until a rival company started causing trouble. Then the IP fell through and Im left with alot of product I cant move anymore.

Second book: Went ok at first. But getting getting little details was a nuisance. Then another company yanked the deal out from under me at the 75% mark.

3rd book: Getting setting details was a total pain in the ass. The owners were barely communicative and then went dead silent. IP folded not long after. Luckily was only 25% through the book.

Getting the creators to talk is the main hurdle. You sure as hell better know the IP inside and out. Little mistakes fans will jump all over half the time and its the fans that are your target audience.

Getting art is another absolute pain. New art will likely cost you. Retreads will get occasional groans from fans. Others will like it.

IP deals can fall apart at a moments notice and sometimes for no foreseeable reason and then you are left with work done and nothing for it.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;696652While I understand licensing issues, I think one of the main problems was Cortex system itself. I have never played a game system before that literally makes me angry playing it... The core dicing mechanic is just horrid. Not only is it frustrating, but it pulls you completely out of the game and breaks immersion unlike any other game system I have ever played.

It makes me sad, cause you guys get a lot of cool licensed products I would love to buy... Just with them being saddled with Cortex,  I never will...

You know, man, I'm really sorry the game gets this kind of emotional response out of you. All I can say is that this isn't the same experience others have. I really hope you've got games you like to play and don't need to worry about this one.

I do feel it's kind of important to note that Cortex Classic (BSG, Supernatural) and Cortex Plus (everything after those ones) really aren't all that much alike outside of the "rating stats with dice" aspect of it. In fact, even one Cortex Plus game isn't necessarily the same as another - look at the difference between Smallville and Leverage, or Marvel Heroic and Firefly.

Cheers,
Cam

Part of the problem (at least for me) was the anticipation of seeing another Marvel game in print only to be presented with another 'non traditional' RPG, like Marvel Saga (cards) and Marvel Universe (diceless). I actually happen to like both of those games but understand why others don't.

When Marvel Heroic came along we're presented with a bunch of traits rather than stats, and whilst I will hold my hands up and admit it does the best job of putting the Falcon and Thor in the same team of any Marvel game I've seen (i.e. not relegating the falcon character to the sidelines watching Thor smite and 'I say thee nay!' to everyone) it does so by dragging the upper tier characters down. It's feasible, through lousy rolls, for Black Widow to beat Hulk in an arm wrestling contest, unless you handwave and say 'higher stat beats lower stat no need to roll' or whatever.

Come to think of it, the Widow pulling her zip down at the front, batting her eyelids at green meanie and playing footsie under the table might get her the win.

Anyway, lack of traditional gaming stats for characters and the event books rather than module type adventures are just a couple of the reasons I'm guessing people didn't care for it (many did, mind). I don't know about anyone else, but I can't be bothered with the annual universe wide events that are forgotten about or retconned in comics almost as soon as they happen. Give me a standard, short, module any day.

Quote from: APN;697219Part of the problem (at least for me) was the anticipation of seeing another Marvel game in print only to be presented with another 'non traditional' RPG, like Marvel Saga (cards) and Marvel Universe (diceless). I actually happen to like both of those games but understand why others don't.

When Marvel Heroic came along we're presented with a bunch of traits rather than stats, and whilst I will hold my hands up and admit it does the best job of putting the Falcon and Thor in the same team of any Marvel game I've seen (i.e. not relegating the falcon character to the sidelines watching Thor smite and 'I say thee nay!' to everyone) it does so by dragging the upper tier characters down. It's feasible, through lousy rolls, for Black Widow to beat Hulk in an arm wrestling contest, unless you handwave and say 'higher stat beats lower stat no need to roll' or whatever.

Come to think of it, the Widow pulling her zip down at the front, batting her eyelids at green meanie and playing footsie under the table might get her the win.

Anyway, lack of traditional gaming stats for characters and the event books rather than module type adventures are just a couple of the reasons I'm guessing people didn't care for it (many did, mind). I don't know about anyone else, but I can't be bothered with the annual universe wide events that are forgotten about or retconned in comics almost as soon as they happen. Give me a standard, short, module any day.

Just for fun we had Daredevil take on Sentry in hand to hand combat.

Daredevil held his own.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;686709I don't think it had to do directly with sales. Every release jumped to the top of the dtrpg list and stayed there for a bit.

I think it has more to do with:

A. MWP bungling physical product. Seriously, out of the 6 books published, they only managed to get 2 of them to printers. This wasn't a problem with the game, it was a problem with their management.

combined with:

B. REALLY high expectations from Marvel. They are riding the movie zeitgeist right now. I imagine they were expecting a much higher return than they were getting, and the return they were expecting was probably higher than an RPG was going to produce, especially when the physical product was managed horribly.

But, either way, we are both speculating. But: there is no evidence the pdf copies sold badly, and plenty that they sold well. The physical releases on the other hand. Well yeah, fuck that shit.

Really, if MARVEL want's a decent return rate and book output ratio for a game, they need to quit dealing with small time operators, when they license a MARVEL RPG.  They probably, even though I don't care for them, should have licensed the game to someone like WoTC/Hasbro who has the money to put the books out on a timely basis or maybe even Fantasy Flight Games (even though, they may even blow it, they seem to be kinda slow on book output as well).

BTW, they got 5 books to the printers not 2, I have them in my hands right now; The Basic Book, The Civil War Premium Event book, X-Men Event book, Civil War 50-States Initiative book and the Young Avengers/Runaways Event book.

Quote from: flyingcircus;697255BTW, they got 5 books to the printers not 2, I have them in my hands right now; The Basic Book, The Civil War Premium Event book, X-Men Event book, Civil War 50-States Initiative book and the Young Avengers/Runaways Event book.

I can't find any information anywhere about the X-Men, Young Avengers, or 50 States Initiative books ever getting physical printings.

When I said get them to the printers, I meant PHYSICAL copies for sale on store shelves.

Quote from: APN;697219It's feasible, through lousy rolls, for Black Widow to beat Hulk in an arm wrestling contest, unless you handwave and say 'higher stat beats lower stat no need to roll' or whatever.

Kind of like Amber Diceless, then.

QuoteCome to think of it, the Widow pulling her zip down at the front, batting her eyelids at green meanie and playing footsie under the table might get her the win.

Kind of like Amber Diceless, then.

QuoteAnyway, lack of traditional gaming stats for characters and the event books rather than module type adventures are just a couple of the reasons I'm guessing people didn't care for it (many did, mind).

It is a maxim of geek fandom that the most hardcore fans of any property have the poorest understanding of it.  Comic book fans demand official immutable stats and rigid continuity.  The writers throw them a bone occasionally but know full well if they actually enforced either of those they'd lose most of their fanbase because those things are actually inimical to superhero adventure comics.

Marvel Heroic came closer than any other superhero RPG I'm familiar with to mimicking what actually happens in superhero comic books.  This is exactly why gamers hated it.

QuoteGive me a standard, short, module any day.

Kind of like Breakout, then.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;697268When I said get them to the printers, I meant PHYSICAL copies for sale on store shelves.

"Ensuring shelf presence in the brick-and-mortar retail channels" is not even remotely close to the same thing as "getting [them] to the printers."  Learn to say what you mean.