Blackmoor is dull without the gonzo sci-fi stuff.

Quote from: RPGPundit;833984Blackmoor is dull without the gonzo sci-fi stuff.

Yeah, that's the thing. My big issue with BM, after ten-something years of running games there, is that especially younger gamers don't get the '60s aesthetics and style any more. To them, it's basically the Iron Kingdoms, as I said.

So, we run the Iron Kingdoms instead.

Quote from: Le Noir Faineant;833523It's a thing of beauty - not so much the setting itself, perhaps, because if you take out the 60s references that most modern players don't understand any more, you basically get Privateer Press' Iron Kingdoms.

Tell us about the 60s references!

Also, does your BM community have documentation (emails, letters, even actual play reports) which show Dave's own evolution of BM over the decades versus the TSR DA modules or the 3e stuff.

Quote from: yabaziou;833507I'm remembering more than 25 years ago when MRH and the Wieck siblings where the co-owners (and also founders, if I remember correctly) of White Wolf, which also published Inphobia. They were pretty dismissive of AD&D (which was in its 2nd iteration). I have read an interview where one of the Wieck siblings said AD&D was not a good game to tell stories.

25 years is a long time. Opinions can change.

Also, let's keep marketing in mind. WW was the new kid on the block against the established TSR so of course they tried to attract customers by reaching out to gamers disenchanted with TSR's products. That's how most companies try to sell The New Hotness.

It's also how the OSR sold The Old Hotness. "WotC isn't real roleplaying! We're the real roleplaying!" Same song, different day.

Quote from: Spinachcat;834072Tell us about the 60s references!

Also, does your BM community have documentation (emails, letters, even actual play reports) which show Dave's own evolution of BM over the decades versus the TSR DA modules or the 3e stuff.

I'd be interested in the answer to this question, as well. My experiences are that the 'published' Blackmoor is very different to the Blackmoor that I played in with Dave in the GM chair; our time there was a lot less 'mainstream' RPG in tone then what I've been seeing discussed in the forum. Dave was a pretty 'off-the-wall' GM, which made for a real contrast with the way Phil ran his game campaign. (Phil, as in "Empire of the Petal Throne; Dave was a player in our game group, as the infamous Captain Harchar of the Blazoned Sail Clan.)

Speaking as a historian and archivist, I have found over the past decade that the way these game campaigns are viewed through the lens of the published materials and the various on-line 'mythologies' (for lack of a better word, sorry!) is very, very different from the way we played in and ran them back in Ye Olden Dayes. Fascinating!

Quote from: Spinachcat;83407725 years is a long time. Opinions can change.

Also, let's keep marketing in mind. WW was the new kid on the block against the established TSR so of course they tried to attract customers by reaching out to gamers disenchanted with TSR's products. That's how most companies try to sell The New Hotness.

It's also how the OSR sold The Old Hotness. "WotC isn't real roleplaying! We're the real roleplaying!" Same song, different day.

Yeah, 25 is a long time and opinions can change. But the more the things change, the more the things remain the same ...

Given the fact I have no proof that MRH is not sincere in this endeavor, I cannot make an informed comment on this. MHR used to be this guy with the new hype long time ago. We will see what comes of this. But his KS records do not speak highly of him !

Quote from: chirine ba kal;834085Speaking as a historian and archivist, I have found over the past decade that the way these game campaigns are viewed through the lens of the published materials and the various on-line 'mythologies' (for lack of a better word, sorry!) is very, very different from the way we played in and ran them back in Ye Olden Dayes. Fascinating!

Hey Chirine! - I am Rafe, from the CBI! And I am not qualified to tell you anything about your own times, Sir! You, after all, were there!

Quote from: Spinachcat;834072Tell us about the 60s references!

Basically, all sci-fi came from Star Trek; except, of course, the references to the "Beagle". For the more horrifying themes of the game, the old "Dark Shadows" series was an important influence, as was the Charlton Heston flick, "El Cid", over similar movies of the time. As to literary influences, Leiber, Poul Anderson, Moorcock, Frank Herbert, and Tolkien's "Hobbit", through the different board and Tolkien-based wargames, seem to have played considerable roles during the FFC years. (Until '75.)


As to most modern players not understanding those references, that might only in part be true - they surely recognize them, but obviously not to the degree that people did, 50 years ago. As in, you can present those dramatic tropes to your players as a gamemaster, but you cannot count on them recognizing them, which obviously changes the tone of your narration in many fundamental ways.

In all brevity, I'd describe this sensation with a neutral example, that I've heard being referred to as "The Spiderman Conundrum": A listener will have a completely different emotional reaction to the wall-climbing, muscular man in the fetish suit who shoots white goo at his enemies if he has never heard about Marvel comics before.

Quote from: Spinachcat;834072Also, does your BM community have documentation (emails, letters, even actual play reports) which show Dave's own evolution of BM over the decades versus the TSR DA modules or the 3e stuff.

We have, but they are admittedly all over the place. My friend Havard has collected a reader's digest over here:

http://blackmoor.mystara.net/articles.html

Especially the articles by Greg Svenson, Arneson's best friend, and his Bedivere, are worth a read.


Now, when it comes to evolution of rules and gaming patterns, I don't think a full reconstruction is possible - or useful. for that matter.

From what I learned, AD&D  1e was a valid representation of Gygax personal take on the game, while "Adventures in Fantasy", DA's last big writing credit, seems to reflect the human-centric, low fantasy approach of the so-called "Fantasy Game" that became the base for D&D. Who invented what and when, especially after almost 50 years now, I have to say, I don't give a rat's ass.

Personally, what always drove me to Blackmoor was that the setting uses traditional grimdark tropes, from Cthulhu to Le Morte d'Arthur, but is not as bleask as modern renditions want to make it. In short, lots of great stories to tell, and to create.

Quite aware who you are, sir - I'm not saying that you're commenting on what we did back then; I'm commenting that there feels like a 'generation gap' between us old codgers in the Twin Cities and modern gamers. Discussing how I run a Braunstein, for example, can get very sticky as modern gamers seem to have difficulty with our "hand-wavy", "loosey-goosey" style of play back then. People who watch the videos of my games comment on this, as well as on things like I don't get very concerned with players knowing 'meta game information'.

In Phil's campaign, for example, I knew a heck of a lot about his world - to the point where he'd ask me questions about how the place worked - but I didn't use that in the game play; I stayed within what I knew I would know as a resident of the place. That was part and parcel of what we called 'role-playing' back then, and we had what I think is called 'immersion' these days in bucket loads.

Like I say, I fond all of this discussion fascinating, as it gives me a look into how games work and are played these days.

The three Adventures in Blackmoor module series by Arneson and Ritchie for BX/BECMI are still some of my favorites.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;834749Quite aware who you are, sir - I'm not saying that you're commenting on what we did back then; I'm commenting that there feels like a 'generation gap' between us old codgers in the Twin Cities and modern gamers. Discussing how I run a Braunstein, for example, can get very sticky as modern gamers seem to have difficulty with our "hand-wavy", "loosey-goosey" style of play back then. People who watch the videos of my games comment on this, as well as on things like I don't get very concerned with players knowing 'meta game information'.

Sure, absolutely. As you might have read over at the CBI, I hit the local con circuit pretty hard this year - and what I can say is, I am not sure about modern gamers having any difficulties, but the kids have definitely way more toys today than I need for my BM/OD&D/BECMI/DCC RPG games.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;834749Like I say, I fond all of this discussion fascinating, as it gives me a look into how games work and are played these days.

Yeah. This board, in general, a place I think I will stay at, for a while.

Quote from: Omega;834753The three Adventures in Blackmoor module series by Arneson and Ritchie for BX/BECMI are still some of my favorites.

Mine too!

Quote from: TristramEvans;831536It's "official" in the same way the Dune prequels are "official"; nothing to do with the original creator

I was about to ask, Didn't Mr. Arneson depart this plane a few years back?

I dunno, this kind of stuff always seems to be to be a case of "Let's use a known title to our marketing advantage even though we've nothing to do with the original."  Maybe someone else knows more about why we should want Blackmoor by someone new. Or want Blackmoor at all for that matter.

Well it would be nice to introduce a new generation to the setting without forcing them to hunt down very OOP modules.

Apparently there have been a few other tries at doing a Blackmoor book. One back in 2008 or 2009? Zeitgeist Games? But WOTC didnt allow it for some reason?

Which makes one wonder how Hagen is going to pull this off assuming he did or did not get the license?

In all modesty, the one thing that should have become somehow official would have been the LFC. Not because of me, but because of who else was involved, and because of what it represented.

I would love to see the brand of "Blackmoor" somehow endure, but apart from a few gems (all hail be editor Tad Kilgore), the d20 line already had some pretty random additions. Not gonna lie, reprints, or reorganizations of the existing, published content, I would like to see, and very much so.

But seemingly random additions - fan fiction at best, and recycled content from other writing projects, at worst - is not something I want to see, especially if it' done by people who are new to the setting. MRH works with CA Suleiman, who also worked with BM d20, so there's a certain connection. But without him, really, what connection would there be to the original setting and campaign?

On the off chance. I searched through D&D Classics and only DA2 Temple of the Frog is up.