There are quite a number I just can’t quite get myself to add to a list of the better setting supplements.  It’s easiest to give examples.

Shadizar - City of Wickedness has a fairly typical presentation that just doesn’t quite standout.  This supplement is a good example of the bulk of the lesser but not actually bad city settings. Complete but uninspired.

Vornheim by Zak S. does have aspects that make it stand out, but it lacks many other depth and layer qualities that would merit its placement with the settings on the better list.  A second edition that would be viable for standard publishing could bring more depth and layers to the city.  These problems likely arose from translating the author's world into a cohesive form, which often requires refinement.  So, this is a vote of confidence in Zak to make it better with more of his vision in subsequent editions.  Incomplete but inspired.

City Builder by Skirmisher Games is complete, but it is also somewhat like a greatly expanded version of a setting advice section in a core book.  If a core book was published without an editor to trim it to a tailored final copy, the setting advice section in the hypothetical core book might look like City Builder. Loquacious to the point of bland.

These three cover the subcategories that make up the lesser but not actually bad city supplements, as I see them.  They do have a lot of competition.  So, it isn’t really a slight on them, and others may find these do measure up to some of the better published city settings available over the years.

In the end, the setting that works best in game is the one that everyone involved will remember as a great city setting.  If the referee has a very clear vision what the city is like, impromptu creation works very well, as I’m sure almost everyone that reads this has done on many occasions.  I recall an excellent Camelot that I ran without any written preparation.  Notes are more important than usual once the characters are interacting with the city, though.

Recently, I have taken up the Ars Magica City & Guild supplement and the City of Greyhawk in tandem, and it is coming together really quite well under AD&D 1.  So, this is an example of mixing supplements of a couple games and using them under a chosen system.  Using City & Guild with the City of Greyhawk has helped refresh an old favorite setting too.

Quote from: Kuroth;523859There probably is another from Das Schwarze Auge that would fit into the better category too, other than Gareth that's already listed.  I just recalled Blacksand from Fighting Fantasy. It is also one of the better ones.

Havena boxed set for Das Schwarze Auge. Outstanding city setting as well!

Quote from: Kuroth;523888Vornheim by Zak S. does have aspects that make it stand out, but it lacks many other depth and layer qualities that would merit its placement with the settings on the better list.  A second edition that would be viable for standard publishing could bring more depth and layers to the city...Incomplete but inspired..

What kinds of things would you like to see added to a second edition or expansion? Just more of the kind of thing that's there or a different kind of content?

I purposefully wanted to avoid a lot of the "mundane depth" I saw in other city supplements that don't help or inspire me when I read them. ("In the tavern is a bartender his name is Marcus he serves ale and mead""The Aristocratic part of town is full aristocrats, they have more money than the people in the poor part of town. Security is better...""The Kingdom Of Tolkienripoffia was founded in the age of MoresoundslikeTolkien after the TotallynotagainstSauronwar" etc)

That is, if I ever expand Vornheim, I'd like to add things that are useful yet still practice what I preach.

Quote from: Zak S;523995What kinds of things would you like to see added to a second edition or expansion? Just more of the kind of thing that's there or a different kind of content?

I purposefully wanted to avoid a lot of the "mundane depth" I saw in other city supplements that don't help or inspire me when I read them. ("In the tavern is a bartender his name is Marcus he serves ale and mead""The Aristocratic part of town is full aristocrats, they have more money than the people in the poor part of town. Security is better...""The Kingdom Of Tolkienripoffia was founded in the age of MoresoundslikeTolkien after the TotallynotagainstSauronwar" etc)

That is, if I ever expand Vornheim, I'd like to add things that are useful yet still practice what I preach.

Just to say it again, Vorheim is reasonably good, and I do think it has inspiration.  After all, the list before was one of the best city settings ever, and I tended toward selecting ones that I know have general consensus as being great among the proponents of those systems.  With all that has been written for role-play games over the decades, there are literally hundreds of city settings that did not make that list.  That Vorheim can stand out from all that has been done is still noteworthy, and it is why I chose it as an example of a subcategory of those that I didn't include.

Reading between the lines of what you write here, I believe you know where to focus a revision or new edition of Vorheim.  It isn't at all about adding mundane depth. That's certain.  It could use more care to bring out the layers in your campaign. There is only a piece of that now.  With those layers there would be real depth.  There are great descriptions of the House of the Medusa, Immortal Zoo and the Library of Zorlac, and these are very nice.  However, a few more short descriptions of locations that have the character of the city would help bring your setting to light.  You must have many descriptions of locations in the city in your notes.  They shouldn't have the same treatment as Medusa, Immortal zoo or the Library.  For example, try to include a half page of narrative for a number of your better locations in the city, perhaps a collection of ones that have been used in a number of your sessions by players.  Those will have the strongest character in your campaign.  A collection of detailed NPCs in narrative, being stat free, would also help provide a clear picture of the power structure in the city, as well as bring the city to life at the most direct level. You have enough tables, which are good for what they are designed.  So, a careful editing of what has been published with some further development will really help refine your vision, and the two combined would increase the page count in only a minor manner.  I like the stylistic approach of the layout, by the way.  Don't be tempted to a more conventional route in that part of a revision or new edition.  So, these are some of my thoughts upon it.

Edit (March, 2013): Recently I acquired the hardcopy of Vornheim, rather than only the pdf, and there is a real difference to how this city book is perceived in hardcopy.  It really is one of the better physical role-play game supplements I have purchased for some time.  The unusual form factor really is a selling feature for players too.  Vornheim is one of the best city supplement of role-play games, and I reassess my opinion based on my experience with the physical book.  I definitely suggest acquiring the physical book.

Quote from: Benoist;523937Havena boxed set for Das Schwarze Auge. Outstanding city setting as well!

The port city Havenâ by Schmidt Spiele for Das Schwarze Auge is a good one alright.  I knew that there was at least one I was forgetting.  Das Fürstentum Albernia includes more information on Havena, and it works as a supplement to the previous boxed set. Am großen Fluss covers this area for the most recent edition Das Schwarze Auge, with a map and some other information about Havenâ.

Gareth is described in Herz des Reiches for the most recent edition of Das Shwarze Auge, as well as in Stolze Schlösser, dunkle Gassen that I mention on the list.



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Footnote:

For those that may read this thread by search or other means, I chose to give the three examples of those I didn’t include on the list to provide a clear idea of my selection process for the list.  I don’t want it to seem that I singled those three out for disparagement, far from it.  I felt I had to make an explanation why I didn’t include them.  After all, I didn’t include Yggsburgh on the list.  So, I hope this helps those that are looking for a published city setting.  I have often used settings that many find actually bad too, using what is provided to just cut down on the amount of preparation.  I'm not going to mention any setting that I find are actually bad.  Even with all of these suggestions, sometimes its easier to go the impromptu route than use something that is a mess from the start or fails to fit in one's campaign.  One of these days I’m going to use the Ingurian city of Bloomberg included in Superhero 2044 somehow.  Fight On!