On the heels of the Marvel Superheroes game, TSR went on a 'single-table' kick and produced several games which used a 'universal' table to resolve all actions and show degree of success or failure.  Star Frontiers and Gamma World both had versions like this (Zeb's Guide and GW3, respectively), and the Conan rpg (now cloned as ZeFRS) each had a single table.

1) But here's the weird part (to me) - they each had different universal tables, far as I can tell (someone will correct me if I'm off here).  So what I've been wondering is...why?  Leaving aside the Conan rpg for now (let's presume fear of licensing nastiness would convince TSR not to use an 'awesome new house concept' for that game), why wouldn't they have used the same table for GW and SF?

2) Obviously, this may be a fad whose time has passed...leaving aside retroclones such as ZeFRS and 4C.  I remember being enamored of the seeming simplicity and elegance, at the time, of a single table - I'm mostly talking about MSH here.  Anybody else?  Would a single-table resolution system be a dealbreaker in the modern era?

3) Did any other publishers jump on this bandwagon, or was it strictly a TSR thing?

Odd topic, I know.  Can't get it out of my head today.

I believe Legendary Lives use a similar table, I also seem to recall that the Dragonraid game did as well. It may be there in other games I didn't ever pick up.

I love the concept, but I think the biggest failure was the fact that they changed the tables too much. Nothing was wrong with the table in MSH, for being used in other games, if they'd altered the scale and offered a few alternate options for play. (Skills for a SF game for example on the table.)

I am planning on a single table game but it will use something closer to MSH than 4C. I'm just very busy with other stuff.

I don't think the application is in error, I do think it was a fad to use it for EVERY new TSR game. (I think they expected to get MSH numbers from those other games. Yet MSH was on target for doing what it set out to do--I don't think GW or Zeb's guide were. )

Quote from: VectorSigma;398439On the heels of the Marvel Superheroes game, TSR went on a 'single-table' kick and produced several games which used a 'universal' table to resolve all actions and show degree of success or failure.  Star Frontiers and Gamma World both had versions like this (Zeb's Guide and GW3, respectively), and the Conan rpg (now cloned as ZeFRS) each had a single table.

1) But here's the weird part (to me) - they each had different universal tables, far as I can tell (someone will correct me if I'm off here).  So what I've been wondering is...why?  Leaving aside the Conan rpg for now (let's presume fear of licensing nastiness would convince TSR not to use an 'awesome new house concept' for that game), why wouldn't they have used the same table for GW and SF?

There wasn't as much of a move to make everything fit under one game system in those days.  People bought different games because GASP! they wanted to play different games, not d20 v2.34861.  

It wasn't really until the 90s that the idea of making everything the same system started to become a real movement.  And that was because of the multi-genre stuff going on at the time.

As another universal table game of the era, I'll mention the universally horrible Darksword Adventures.

Quote from: VectorSigma;3984392) Obviously, this may be a fad whose time has passed...leaving aside retroclones such as ZeFRS and 4C.  I remember being enamored of the seeming simplicity and elegance, at the time, of a single table - I'm mostly talking about MSH here.  Anybody else?  Would a single-table resolution system be a dealbreaker in the modern era?

It wouldn't be a draw for me.  MSH can squeak by for me under a grandfather clause.  But for a new system, I really don't want to be referencing a chart everytime I roll something.

The most recent game I've seen use a chart for resolution was the Metamophosis Alpha game.  Although that one struck me as more like a THAC0 chart than the previous ones mentioned.

Quote from: VectorSigma;3984393) Did any other publishers jump on this bandwagon, or was it strictly a TSR thing?

Odd topic, I know.  Can't get it out of my head today.

I can't think of any offhand.  TSR had a sort of reputation for having off the wall impractical stuff in their non-D&D games.  I always got the impression that gamers actually disliked it when TSR games shared systems between them.

Quote from: Gabriel2;398442It wasn't really until the 90s that the idea of making everything the same system started to become a real movement.  And that was because of the multi-genre stuff going on at the time.

I dunno about that, but it just struck me that SF/GW would have absolutely begged for some kind of compatibility.

Ah, yes, I remember Darksword Adventures.  Y'know, it's funny, when I was thinking about this earlier, I was focused on the TSR stuff because of the full-color (and personal nostalgia factor)...but plenty of other games have near-universal-tables as well (BRP's Resistance table thingy, for one).

Quote from: VectorSigma;398439Did any other publishers jump on this bandwagon, or was it strictly a TSR thing?

I remember a reviewer in Dragon -the DC Heroes review I think - saying that universal table games were 'proliferating like comic book mutants' at one point.  DC Heroes/MEGS uses a table lookup as well (from the review, I believe the earlier versions had an "Action Wheel" instead, but I only own 3rd). (That was by Mayfair Games).
TORG and Shatterzone (Masterbook) were both table lookup as well, but there have to be plenty of others out there. Talislanta has a very basic action resolution table, too.

I think universal tables were all the rage mostly since they gave results off checks, but they mostly got abandoned in the "roll bucket of dice and count successes" craze, which I think was the early 90s.

Quote from: Silverlion;398441I believe Legendary Lives use a similar table, I also seem to recall that the Dragonraid game did as well. It may be there in other games I didn't ever pick up.

This one's been released as a freebie now, BTW (along with Lost Souls). I believe you're right but am too lazy to check.
http://www.hauntedattic.org/roleplaying.html

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;398454I remember a reviewer in Dragon -the DC Heroes review I think - saying that universal table games were 'proliferating like comic book mutants' at one point.  DC Heroes/MEGS uses a table lookup as well (from the review, I believe the earlier versions had an "Action Wheel" instead, but I only own 3rd). (That was by Mayfair Games).
TORG and Shatterzone (Masterbook) were both table lookup as well, but there have to be plenty of others out there. Talislanta has a very basic action resolution table, too.

But Torg's resolution table was distinctly different from the Marvel one.

Torg's table only gave you a number which you added to a standard attribute + skill + random roll system.  It was this which drove the system.  

Marvel's and GW3's were different because the table WAS the universal resolution mechanic.  Everything had to be cross referenced on and was determined solely by the table.  Meanwhile Torg could conceivably work almost identically with a d20 that happened to have different numbers on each side instead of the traditional 1 - 20.

Maybe I'm nitpicking, but not all tables seem the same or even similar to each other in this regard.

I was going to mention Masterbook. I don't know it very well, though.

BRP doesn't really fit, since the Resistance Table is only one element of the system used for certain kinds of opposed situations. Most stuff in that game is done through skill checks.

One that hasn't been mentioned is Mythic, a fairly recent design, which feeds nearly everything through a table that cross-references plain-English descriptors to yield a probability.

Quote from: Gabriel2;398456But Torg's resolution table was distinctly different from the Marvel one.

Torg's table only gave you a number which you added to a standard attribute + skill + random roll system.  It was this which drove the system.  

Marvel's and GW3's were different because the table WAS the universal resolution mechanic.  Everything had to be cross referenced on and was determined solely by the table.  Meanwhile Torg could conceivably work almost identically with a d20 that happened to have different numbers on each side instead of the traditional 1 - 20.

Maybe I'm nitpicking, but not all tables seem the same or even similar to each other in this regard.

No, sounds valid. I may be misclassifying then - I've never actually read the TORG rules (Back when it was popular, the local gaming shop seemed to have hundreds of supplements but not the core book..).

Did Pacesetter's games have a single table like that?  I can't remember for certain.

In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas sure did, with the (Unique Multiple) d666 table.

Talislanta and Omni use a table (one) using a d20 roll and comparing final result from score+roll vs opposing score+roll (and modifiers) to get the result.

It's not quite as interesting as MSH but it is functional and fun (it is also used in Hellas) a recent release.