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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: mAcular Chaotic on April 06, 2021, 11:58:18 PM

Title: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: mAcular Chaotic on April 06, 2021, 11:58:18 PM
I'm running a 5e game that I've pretty much converted in many ways to be like OD&D/AD&D. I've implemented morale rules, reaction rules, wandering monsters, lighting, encumbrance, etc.

One thing I want to do is hirelings and henchmen. But I'm not sure how it's supposed to work with the dungeon.

A lot of the hirelings seem useful ONLY in the dungeon, like a man-at-arms, or a torchbearer, or a porter to haul your treasure -- but they're all supposed to not go into the dungeon because it's too dangerous.

Did anyone ever have them go in? Is there an amount you can pay them to make them go? Or is it always just no go?

For example, let's say I'm a fighter, and I want a torchbearer to come with me into the dungeon so I can fight with a sword and shield. And a porter to help carry my extra shield and gear. Does that just never happen?
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 12:17:13 AM
I'm running a 5e game that I've pretty much converted in many ways to be like OD&D/AD&D. I've implemented morale rules, reaction rules, wandering monsters, lighting, encumbrance, etc.

One thing I want to do is hirelings and henchmen. But I'm not sure how it's supposed to work with the dungeon.

A lot of the hirelings seem useful ONLY in the dungeon, like a man-at-arms, or a torchbearer, or a porter to haul your treasure -- but they're all supposed to not go into the dungeon because it's too dangerous.

Did anyone ever have them go in? Is there an amount you can pay them to make them go? Or is it always just no go?

For example, let's say I'm a fighter, and I want a torchbearer to come with me into the dungeon so I can fight with a sword and shield. And a porter to help carry my extra shield and gear. Does that just never happen?

I guess it depends on the CHA of your PC and therefore the loyalty of the hirelings plus the ammount you're willing to pay them.

But I've never played 5e so I don't know if they have those rules there.

Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 12:26:51 AM
Why would you have a hireling and not bring them into the dungeon?

How are they going to earn their GPs by sitting outside?
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: VisionStorm on April 07, 2021, 12:38:05 AM
Why would you have a hireling and not bring them into the dungeon?

How are they going to earn their GPs by sitting outside?

They could guard the horses, wagons, camping gear and non-dungeon delving tools white the PCs go in, if you brought a bunch of stuff expecting a big haul. They could also serve as look outs, but that would require them to go in to alert the group if someone’ coming.

But, yeah this is the first I’ve heard of hirelings not being able to enter the dungeon. I thought mercs that serve as extra fighting hands was part of the point of hirelings (not that I’ve used them often).
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 12:47:26 AM
Yeah. The hirelings can go into the dungeon -- but in the old red box D&D I used to play, they needed a morale check to go in. And a morale check at the beginning of each encounter. And morale checks at various other times with modifiers based on whether they were in danger, whether they had been injured, and whether loot or magical healing had been given them.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: mAcular Chaotic on April 07, 2021, 01:16:37 AM
From what I've read, there's two categories: hirelings, who are non-adventurer types, 0-level, who can help out outside the dungeon or in town; they don't want to go into the dungeon because it's suicide for them. And then there's henchmen/retainers, who are essentially leveled adventurer NPCs who'd get a cut of the gold/XP. But there's multiple terms and it can get very confusing.

I'm running a 5e game that I've pretty much converted in many ways to be like OD&D/AD&D. I've implemented morale rules, reaction rules, wandering monsters, lighting, encumbrance, etc.

One thing I want to do is hirelings and henchmen. But I'm not sure how it's supposed to work with the dungeon.

A lot of the hirelings seem useful ONLY in the dungeon, like a man-at-arms, or a torchbearer, or a porter to haul your treasure -- but they're all supposed to not go into the dungeon because it's too dangerous.

Did anyone ever have them go in? Is there an amount you can pay them to make them go? Or is it always just no go?

For example, let's say I'm a fighter, and I want a torchbearer to come with me into the dungeon so I can fight with a sword and shield. And a porter to help carry my extra shield and gear. Does that just never happen?

I guess it depends on the CHA of your PC and therefore the loyalty of the hirelings plus the ammount you're willing to pay them.

But I've never played 5e so I don't know if they have those rules there.
5e has only loose rules for it, and nobody really uses it. So I need to consult the wisdom of the past to really get this down.


Why would you have a hireling and not bring them into the dungeon?

How are they going to earn their GPs by sitting outside?
Well, most hireling types are going to just stand outside guarding your wagon or whatever. And there's supposed to be retainers/henchmen that go in as leveled NPCs or tougher NPCs who essentially act as NPC adventurers if you want dungeon delvers. But roleplaying wise, you just know that someone's going to want their guard to tag along at some point, or the torchbearer, and I am wondering what was done in those situations.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 01:20:10 AM
I'm running a 5e game that I've pretty much converted in many ways to be like OD&D/AD&D. I've implemented morale rules, reaction rules, wandering monsters, lighting, encumbrance, etc.

One thing I want to do is hirelings and henchmen. But I'm not sure how it's supposed to work with the dungeon.

A lot of the hirelings seem useful ONLY in the dungeon, like a man-at-arms, or a torchbearer, or a porter to haul your treasure -- but they're all supposed to not go into the dungeon because it's too dangerous.

Did anyone ever have them go in? Is there an amount you can pay them to make them go? Or is it always just no go?

For example, let's say I'm a fighter, and I want a torchbearer to come with me into the dungeon so I can fight with a sword and shield. And a porter to help carry my extra shield and gear. Does that just never happen?

I guess it depends on the CHA of your PC and therefore the loyalty of the hirelings plus the ammount you're willing to pay them.

But I've never played 5e so I don't know if they have those rules there.
5e has only loose rules for it, and nobody really uses it. So I need to consult the wisdom of the past to really get this down.


Why would you have a hireling and not bring them into the dungeon?

How are they going to earn their GPs by sitting outside?
Well, most hireling types are going to just stand outside guarding your wagon or whatever. And there's supposed to be retainers/henchmen that go in as leveled NPCs or tougher NPCs who essentially act as NPC adventurers if you want dungeon delvers. But roleplaying wise, you just know that someone's going to want their guard to tag along at some point, or the torchbearer, and I am wondering what was done in those situations.

Roll for their morale, aplying the loyalty modifier table I gave you and negotiate the pay. Remind them staying outside mean they're alone without healers, and the security in numbers.

Of course the negotiation is made between the PCs and their Hirelings (YOU the DM).
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: mAcular Chaotic on April 07, 2021, 01:32:45 AM
How much is an expected normal amount to pay them to go in with you? I've seen some numbers like "100 GP as a starting point" and that seems like it's so expensive it wouldn't be worth it (for someone that's probably going to cut and run or die in one hit anyway) unless you're literally rolling in gold. Maybe you get way more gold in earlier editions though...
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 07, 2021, 01:41:22 AM
How much is an expected normal amount to pay them to go in with you? I've seen some numbers like "100 GP as a starting point" and that seems like it's so expensive it wouldn't be worth it (for someone that's probably going to cut and run or die in one hit anyway) unless you're literally rolling in gold. Maybe you get way more gold in earlier editions though...

Offer them a cut, not a fixed price, it's fair for them and they get more if there's more gold, which might work as an incentive to work/fight harder.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: S'mon on April 07, 2021, 03:19:08 AM
IMC (5e) hirelings like men at arms are common but mostly used for guarding the home base. Getting them to go in the dungeon would require a CHA check for the PC, and I'd be making morale checks (on 2d6) if they took losses. But I'd assume someone specifically hired as a 'torchbearer' is up for going down the dungeon. I'd probably use the 2gp/day pay rate for 'danger time', rather than the 2 sp/day 'unskilled hireling' rate, and of course they would not fight and would stay behind the front rank PCs.
If the PCs lost non-combatant hirelings in a dungeon it would be extremely hard to replace them.

Generally in 5e the 'light' cantrip is ubiquitous enough that IME torchbearers are not needed, and/or PCs carry their own torches.

Edit: NPCs who fight or provide specialist skills like trap detection & lockpicking will normally expect a loot share. Junior PC-class types will take a half share each, these are usually henchmen of the PCs. A squad of men at arms might take one or more shares between them all, depending on numbers and experience. NPCs of similar power to the PCs will want a full share. One group of PCs IMC kicked off the campaign being hired by a higher level adventuring NPC, she initially offered them half the treasure, the other half for herself, but settled on a slightly smaller amount - the point became moot when the eldritch abomination killed her. :)
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Omega on April 07, 2021, 06:20:10 AM
Why would you have a hireling and not bring them into the dungeon?

How are they going to earn their GPs by sitting outside?

Actually thats exactly what some are supposed to do. Sit outside and guard the camp, or wait for the all clear and then come in and help haul stuff out.

D&D has had various types of hirelings from edition to edition.

Some are just to guard your stronghold. Or camp.
Some will come along into a dungeon. Others will flat out refuse as that is not their job.
And some are just NPC adventurers who are not hirelings.

BX and AD&D I think did the best job of defining who will and who will not go delving.
B had Retainers, these were a cut above men-at-arms and soldiers and could and would go along into the dungeon.
X added Specialists and Mercenaries. Neither of these go along into the dungeon.
And Keep on the Borderlands has quick rules for hiring men-at-arms at the tavern to go along.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: HappyDaze on April 07, 2021, 06:27:01 AM
My last 5e group regularly hired guards (the Guard NPC from the MM) and took them along on dungeons. Some were left to protect camp, while a few were brought into the dungeon. Remarkably, only a few died even when the PCs were Lvl 5 or so because the group focused on effects/spells that enhanced all allies. The more allies, the more the effect/spell offers. Also, with bounded accuracy, even the humble guard adds to your group's damage output in a meaningful way.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 07, 2021, 08:15:03 AM
My rule of thumb has usually been 'if you expend resources on X, it's available'. Hirelings are no different.

Now, you probably can't demand a hireling coat himself in BBQ sauce and throw himself into the dragon's maw as a distraction (and if your GM allows that, wtf). But it depends a lot on pay and morale. A fanatical cohort might be more inclined to slather on the sauce than some rando you hired as a valet.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Steven Mitchell on April 07, 2021, 08:29:32 AM
This is where the GM adjudication comes in.  The party has a bunch of "hirelings" that are paid to guard the camp, take care of the horses, and haul the stuff back to town when the party gets it out of the dungeon.  The party decides that it would be a good idea if some or all of the hirelings would go into the dungeon.  OK, why is that?

A. The party wants some extra help.  That is, they want the "hirelings" to act more like "henchman".  You adjudication is all about what's in it for the hirelings.  This is a potential promotion--more pay, but also more risk.  Some might be inclined to take it.  Others say no way.  Even the ones that are inclined to take it (reaction roll) will have somewhat different ideas of what it means.  One guy is planning to risk it one time, and if he makes it out, take his share of the gold and open a general store back in the village.  Another guy sees this as his gateway to fame, his big chance.  He'll expect to be a henchman from now on. 

B. The party is being pursued in the wilderness.  They've been to this dungeon before.  They think the best chance of survival is to hole up in the dungeon in a spot they know to fight off the pursuit.  Or maybe they know a second exit that they can use to lose the pursuit.  Of course they want the "hirelings" to go into the "dungeon".  They might need to do a little fast talking, but it is in the hirelings best interest to go.  Assuming that all works, when they get back to home base again, some extra pay for the hirelings is probably in order to keep morale up.  Not so much because they explicitly went into the dungeon but because of what it represents:  The jaunt got risky enough that going into the dungeon was the best option.  On the other hand, assuming it works, the thrill might be enough for some of the hirelings.  Adjudicate it based on how you see them.

The henchman and hireling rules are put into place to give you a starting place to handle some of the most common adjudication needs for having retainers.  They are not meant to replace your adjudication.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: hedgehobbit on April 07, 2021, 09:01:41 AM
How much is an expected normal amount to pay them to go in with you? I've seen some numbers like "100 GP as a starting point" and that seems like it's so expensive it wouldn't be worth it (for someone that's probably going to cut and run or die in one hit anyway) unless you're literally rolling in gold. Maybe you get way more gold in earlier editions though...

In earlier editions, hireling wages were in silver pieces per day or gold pieces per month, ranging in value from 1 for a laborer to 10 for a man-at-arms. In OD&D, hirelings were split into regular hirelings and "hirelings of unusual nature" which included leveled NPCs as well as monsters that you either convinced or coerced into traveling with you. As the game evolved, the idea of getting monsters to follow you around was pretty much dropped (sadly) and the term "hirelings of unusual nature" was replaced with either henchmen and retainers. So, back then hirelings were most certainly going into the dungeon.

Despite being a joke game, the original Hackmaster has the best rules for hirelings and henchmen around. Well worth a look if you can find a copy.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: robertliguori on April 07, 2021, 02:32:20 PM
This gets kind of dicey in 5e, because bounded accuracy means that you can do things the adventure does not expect you to do if you can bring in a few dozen low-level shortbow-wielding militia to volley-fire at specific targets.

But in general, the assumption I've worked with is that if you're getting hired to follow people around and perform a service, you need to negotiate exactly where and when you're not going, in advance, because labor disputes can be resolved with you suddenly being let go from the group and having to deal with the Wandering Monster tables by your lonesome as you try to make your way back to civilization.

Also, the thought occurs to me that being paid professonally as an adventurer's hireling is probably not a common or safe career path. So instead, perhaps you should set up explicitly short-term, fixed-cost, fixed-duty hirelings.  That is to say, if you're hired by a town to handle a nearby community of goblins that are raiding their outlying farms, then you can, at low cost, hire a bunch of hirelings to maintain your camp while you're campaigning against the goblin lair, and probably a fair number of more-valor-than-sense would-be adventurers who will gladly risk their 16 whole hp against the goblins to protect their towns and families.

As usual, the best answer is to dive into the specifics of the scenario, and make those specifics matter, because that makes things more interesting than generic morale roles.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: S'mon on April 07, 2021, 03:12:25 PM
This gets kind of dicey in 5e, because bounded accuracy means that you can do things the adventure does not expect you to do if you can bring in a few dozen low-level shortbow-wielding militia to volley-fire at specific targets.

For me that's definitely a feature not a bug. Players love pulling off that kind of "We beat the adventure!" trick. Of course there'll be a price, in resources and in reduced XP (per 5e RAW, every allied NPC takes an equal XP share away from the PCs). But if the players think the alternative was losing they'll be happy to pay that price.

IMC though the level 3-4 PC groups haven't been taking their 11 hp guards into the dungeons at all; no one seems to think in terms of 'bring these guys and we could do a bit more damage to the orcs!' - they tend to worry much more about losing followers now than back in the '80s when I started playing D&D.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 07, 2021, 03:56:55 PM
So far, I'll be honest, I haven't had this problem (though I'm about to :D )

The one 'hireling' the group had (a hapless gnome who surrendered to them) got turned into charcoal when the wild mage sorceress accidentally fireballed herself. The ranger player keeps suggesting that we put her in a steel box with the label 'front towards enemy'.

They also managed to befriend a randomly conjured rhinoceros, but time will tell if they can actually train the thing. Good times.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 04:47:24 PM
Why would you have a hireling and not bring them into the dungeon?

How are they going to earn their GPs by sitting outside?

Actually thats exactly what some are supposed to do. Sit outside and guard the camp, or wait for the all clear and then come in and help haul stuff out.

D&D has had various types of hirelings from edition to edition.

Some are just to guard your stronghold. Or camp.
Some will come along into a dungeon. Others will flat out refuse as that is not their job.
And some are just NPC adventurers who are not hirelings.

BX and AD&D I think did the best job of defining who will and who will not go delving.
B had Retainers, these were a cut above men-at-arms and soldiers and could and would go along into the dungeon.
X added Specialists and Mercenaries. Neither of these go along into the dungeon.
And Keep on the Borderlands has quick rules for hiring men-at-arms at the tavern to go along.

You have a Mercenary that you can hire to not go into a Dungeon.

I'll take "Things that never happened" for 10 points.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 05:02:19 PM
Why would you have a hireling and not bring them into the dungeon?

How are they going to earn their GPs by sitting outside?

Actually thats exactly what some are supposed to do. Sit outside and guard the camp, or wait for the all clear and then come in and help haul stuff out.

D&D has had various types of hirelings from edition to edition.

Some are just to guard your stronghold. Or camp.
Some will come along into a dungeon. Others will flat out refuse as that is not their job.
And some are just NPC adventurers who are not hirelings.

BX and AD&D I think did the best job of defining who will and who will not go delving.
B had Retainers, these were a cut above men-at-arms and soldiers and could and would go along into the dungeon.
X added Specialists and Mercenaries. Neither of these go along into the dungeon.
And Keep on the Borderlands has quick rules for hiring men-at-arms at the tavern to go along.

You have a Mercenary that you can hire to not go into a Dungeon.

I'll take "Things that never happened" for 10 points.

Those mercenaries were specifically hired to guard the keep/stronghold/wizard's tower while your character and their friends were off adventuring. The specialists were for building your keep/stronghold/wizard's tower. My copies of B&X seem to have gone walkabout for the moment, but the rule is there (this is the 1979 version of Basic and Expert D&D, so if you're one of those kids who thinks 3rd ed D&D is old school, you could be confused).
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 05:07:00 PM
Why would you have a hireling and not bring them into the dungeon?

How are they going to earn their GPs by sitting outside?

Actually thats exactly what some are supposed to do. Sit outside and guard the camp, or wait for the all clear and then come in and help haul stuff out.

D&D has had various types of hirelings from edition to edition.

Some are just to guard your stronghold. Or camp.
Some will come along into a dungeon. Others will flat out refuse as that is not their job.
And some are just NPC adventurers who are not hirelings.

BX and AD&D I think did the best job of defining who will and who will not go delving.
B had Retainers, these were a cut above men-at-arms and soldiers and could and would go along into the dungeon.
X added Specialists and Mercenaries. Neither of these go along into the dungeon.
And Keep on the Borderlands has quick rules for hiring men-at-arms at the tavern to go along.

You have a Mercenary that you can hire to not go into a Dungeon.

I'll take "Things that never happened" for 10 points.

Those mercenaries were specifically hired to guard the keep/stronghold/wizard's tower while your character and their friends were off adventuring. The specialists were for building your keep/stronghold/wizard's tower. My copies of B&X seem to have gone walkabout for the moment, but the rule is there (this is the 1979 version of Basic and Expert D&D, so if you're one of those kids who thinks 3rd ed D&D is old school, you could be confused).

Yeah, thats me, 3e is old school.  :o
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: ScytheSong on April 07, 2021, 05:15:37 PM

Yeah, thats me, 3e is old school.  :o

Considering how much of the OSR is based on trying to get to older styles of gaming through the lens of 3rd's OGL, I never know. That's why the "if" is there. ;D
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: rickss on April 07, 2021, 05:28:52 PM
(for 1e) Except for the leaders of soldiers (sergeant, lieutenant, etc) and the sage, hirelings are generally Level 0. And they can't ever gain a level.

Henchmen are L1+, and can gain levels. But they as a general rule won't  hire on with the party unless they're low level:
Quote
DMG: As a general rule, only characters of 1st level of experience will be attracted to service with.a player character. (If the NPC has already gained a level or more of experience on his or her own, why would the aegis of a PC be sought?!) If the player character attempting to find an NPC henchman is over 6th level, there is a 10% chance that the character found will be 2nd level, and seeking service because of the renown of the PC; if the player character is over 11 th level, there is a 25% chance that NPC will be 3rd level, 25% chance for 2nd level, and 50% for 1st
level.

A henchman also has loyalty to a single PC, not the party: "A low-level non-player character whose loyalty is to one member of the party rather than the party itself."


The problem for us was sailors. As the party advanced in level, their sailors became brittle. But the players didn't want to just arbitrarily replace their sailors with soldiers.  An they can't technically hire henchmen for the crew due to CHA limits, so each player would have to have part of the crew reporting to them.

So we created henchlings, a blend of hireling and henchman. To make the paperwork simple, if the party pays them more, the sailors are treated as L1 (or L2, L3, etc).   You can see the details of that here: https://dnd.sinister.net/the-making-of-henchlings/
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: VisionStorm on April 07, 2021, 06:00:04 PM
Yeah, thats me, 3e is old school.  :o

And the greatest edition of D&D. 8)
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Shasarak on April 07, 2021, 06:17:43 PM
Yeah, thats me, 3e is old school.  :o

And the greatest edition of D&D. 8)

I agree with that.  None of those crazy non-fighting "mercenaries" in 3e for sure.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Marchand on April 08, 2021, 04:12:56 AM
This gets kind of dicey in 5e, because bounded accuracy means that you can do things the adventure does not expect you to do if you can bring in a few dozen low-level shortbow-wielding militia to volley-fire at specific targets.

For me that's definitely a feature not a bug. Players love pulling off that kind of "We beat the adventure!" trick. Of course there'll be a price, in resources and in reduced XP (per 5e RAW, every allied NPC takes an equal XP share away from the PCs). But if the players think the alternative was losing they'll be happy to pay that price.

I'm all for player creativity and not being limited by what's on the character sheet, but this seems to turn D&D into a wargame.

Or should I say, back into a wargame - there are crazy sizes of PC groups cited in OD&D if I remember right.

Still, taking a company or battalion in to storm a dungeon doesn't feel like the way I want to play regularly.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 04:18:17 AM
Still, taking a company or battalion in to storm a dungeon doesn't feel like the way I want to play regularly.

I'm in favour of flexibility - players & GMs should have the opportunity to approach the game in a wide variety of styles. I always felt 4e D&D was constraining in that you HAVE to play it in Big Damn Heroes mode, and it's incapable of handling resource management without serious modding. Whereas in 5e I can run 1e-style battles between small armies ok - and am currently doing so, a tribe of orcs (around 70 or so) & their pet barlgura demon is attacking a small dwarf hold defended by 8 PCs and around 24 allied NPCs.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: Omega on April 08, 2021, 04:25:15 AM

You have a Mercenary that you can hire to not go into a Dungeon.

I'll take "Things that never happened" for 10 points.

Yeah even way back this one puzzled me. Id have thought the mercs were the ones that go along and the men-at-arms were the ones that did not. So I usually just swap the terms.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: SHARK on April 08, 2021, 05:22:56 AM
Still, taking a company or battalion in to storm a dungeon doesn't feel like the way I want to play regularly.

I'm in favour of flexibility - players & GMs should have the opportunity to approach the game in a wide variety of styles. I always felt 4e D&D was constraining in that you HAVE to play it in Big Damn Heroes mode, and it's incapable of handling resource management without serious modding. Whereas in 5e I can run 1e-style battles between small armies ok - and am currently doing so, a tribe of orcs (around 70 or so) & their pet barlgura demon is attacking a small dwarf hold defended by 8 PCs and around 24 allied NPCs.

Greetings!

Yep, I like this too, my friend! ;D

I have always used and encouraged players to gain henchmen, hirelings, and such, being long-inspired by how playing D&D began in the beginning.

Beyond that motivation, though, it's just great fun! I'm also reminded that having such a flexible approach generally accomplishes a few other meaningful dynamics;

(1) Having some Henchmen and Hirelings along with the group adds realism to game-play, in the kinds of battles and scope of their accomplishments actually become *more* believable, more grounded in real heroism, and less of a super hero dynamic of "We are four superheroes and can do anything"

(2) The inclusion of additional henchmen and hirelings obviously increases roleplaying, for everyone involved, whether it involves training, engaging in fighting, developing friendships, or even pursuing romantic relationships. Having more scope for roleplaying is usually fun for everyone, and also mitigates against the sometimes perceived dynamic of "Always Fighting and Killing Everything".

(3) IMMERSION: I have found that players get quite involved with the NPC's, and through the rivalries, romances, friendship, and other dramas going on with everyone, the Players become more immersed in the campaign world.

(4) EPIC HEROISM: Related to Increased Realism in Point (1) earlier, having henchmen and hirelings, and gradually retainers, bodyguards, specialists and troops, also interestingly increases the scope for epic heroism. The Players are more and more able to engage the fantastic world in increasingly heroic ways--like the Argonauts of ancient Greece, or a heroic band of Viking raiders on a Dragonship, and such like. They can participate in epic battles, attack enemy fortresses, engage meaningfully against a Dragon or an island fortress of evil giants, and so on. I suppose I find the scope and style is gradually and realistically heroic, and inspiring, as well as fun, while avoiding seemingly being ridiculous or entirely unbelievable, if that makes sense.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 05:31:03 AM
Still, taking a company or battalion in to storm a dungeon doesn't feel like the way I want to play regularly.

I'm in favour of flexibility - players & GMs should have the opportunity to approach the game in a wide variety of styles. I always felt 4e D&D was constraining in that you HAVE to play it in Big Damn Heroes mode, and it's incapable of handling resource management without serious modding. Whereas in 5e I can run 1e-style battles between small armies ok - and am currently doing so, a tribe of orcs (around 70 or so) & their pet barlgura demon is attacking a small dwarf hold defended by 8 PCs and around 24 allied NPCs.

Greetings!

Yep, I like this too, my friend! ;D

I have always used and encouraged players to gain henchmen, hirelings, and such, being long-inspired by how playing D&D began in the beginning.

Beyond that motivation, though, it's just great fun! I'm also reminded that having such a flexible approach generally accomplishes a few other meaningful dynamics;

(1) Having some Henchmen and Hirelings along with the group adds realism to game-play, in the kinds of battles and scope of their accomplishments actually become *more* believable, more grounded in real heroism, and less of a super hero dynamic of "We are four superheroes and can do anything"

(2) The inclusion of additional henchmen and hirelings obviously increases roleplaying, for everyone involved, whether it involves training, engaging in fighting, developing friendships, or even pursuing romantic relationships. Having more scope for roleplaying is usually fun for everyone, and also mitigates against the sometimes perceived dynamic of "Always Fighting and Killing Everything".

(3) IMMERSION: I have found that players get quite involved with the NPC's, and through the rivalries, romances, friendship, and other dramas going on with everyone, the Players become more immersed in the campaign world.

(4) EPIC HEROISM: Related to Increased Realism in Point (1) earlier, having henchmen and hirelings, and gradually retainers, bodyguards, specialists and troops, also interestingly increases the scope for epic heroism. The Players are more and more able to engage the fantastic world in increasingly heroic ways--like the Argonauts of ancient Greece, or a heroic band of Viking raiders on a Dragonship, and such like. They can participate in epic battles, attack enemy fortresses, engage meaningfully against a Dragon or an island fortress of evil giants, and so on. I suppose I find the scope and style is gradually and realistically heroic, and inspiring, as well as fun, while avoiding seemingly being ridiculous or entirely unbelievable, if that makes sense.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hi SHARK! Yes, this matches my feelings and experience exactly. I designed my current 5e campaign (set in 1e era Forgetten Realms) very much to accommodate this play style, with classed N/PCs kept simple by not using the Feat & Multiclassing options, XP based advancement, and explicit rules for hirelings & retainers - eg I use a henchman limit of 4 + CHA bonus; currently the PCs are mostly around 4th level and all three active groups have their own manors/domains with a bunch of NPC followers, several henchmen per group, and a lot of interest in acquiring more. Two of the manors have squads of guards, while the ruler of the third thinks he 'can't afford it' despite having the most money of any of them. :) I have 16 active players across the three groups, with around 18-20 PCs depending on how it's counted. Pretty close to Gygax's recommended 20 players. :D

Re RP & romance, a few PCS have relationships with NPCs (I never almost never see PC-PC romance even though there are some married couples among my players - but I do have some very attractive NPCs) :D - and some of the NPCs form relationships with each other of course - I think this is definitely beneficial to making the world feel real.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uj7lprO18Wk/YEq_VBr0quI/AAAAAAAARqk/CyhmMBE7nJY7LqZniv_PDqO54snLUGvgACLcBGAsYHQ/w221-h400/Elia%2BChatzoudis.jpeg)
Elia the Shadow Sorceress, an NPC henchperson IMC. None of the PCs seem too interested in flirting with her though - might be the whole 'I have a personal relationship with Death/Myrkul' thing she's got going.  ;D The pic is apparently Mina Harker as a vampire, I guess the sparkly no-fangs type.
Title: Re: Making hirelings go into the dungeon
Post by: HappyDaze on April 08, 2021, 06:09:21 AM
Still, taking a company or battalion in to storm a dungeon doesn't feel like the way I want to play regularly.
My players usually opted for taking six guards with them into dungeons. Just enough to boost them with things like Inspiring Leader and still have a blocking wall to control monster movement to a fair degree.