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Author Topic: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!  (Read 1652 times)

Longshadow

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Re: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2022, 09:31:47 PM »
One of the things that has pushed me away from D&D has been how powerful and diverse spellcasters are. I definitely prefer much more focused specialties.

VisionStorm

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Re: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2022, 10:52:56 AM »
One of the things that has pushed me away from D&D has been how powerful and diverse spellcasters are. I definitely prefer much more focused specialties.

This did cross my mind when I read the topic title. If anything 5e spellcasters are a little too diverse rather than lacking in diversity. Sorcerers and (specially) Warlocks in particular are artificially distinct from wizards, just as an excuse to keep them as separate classes rather than fold them into wizards as a subclass. There's way too many classes in 5e, specially spellcasting classes and specially when the concept of subclasses exists and they could've simply made variants of arcane/divine classes (or even all the warrior classes as well) subclasses of a core class to keep things simple and more manageable.

If anything I would prefer for spellcasting to be standardized and follow consistent core rules, rather than make me keep track of half a dozen variants, with special casting rules and specialized spell lists each. All that crap does is add to bookkeeping and content bloat, making things more difficult to track or improvise, specially from the DM's end. Having numerous spell lists and hundreds of variants of existing spells means that the DM has to constantly stop play to check the book—running through literally hundreds of pages back and forth, checking the class's spell list for available spells, then going through hundred of spell entries—just to find the specific variant the PC or NPC/creature is using now. Even character creation is a freaking pain, when picking your character's known spells

I much prefer the way that Shadowrun handles magic, where magic works the same way for everyone at its core, and everyone has access to the same spells, but differences between traditions (Hermetic vs Shaman of a specific Totem) are handled through special benefits that simply modify how magic for a specific tradition works. Applied to D&D you could use the same core spellcasting system for everyone, but give Clerics bonuses when casting spells tied to their Domains, Druids when using Nature magic, Wizards when casting spells tied to their School specialty, etc.

I do agree with the OP that certain spells can be too limited sometimes, but Steven Mitchell makes a good point about handling enhanced versions of those spells as higher level spell slot versions of the same spell. That's a pretty elegant way to add variety to the existing spells, and allows less limited or more expansive versions without bloating the game up with countless separate variants of the same spell, while also maintaining game balance. Instead, those variations would be found within the core spell itself, making them easier to find and giving you more options for casting existing spells.

HappyDaze

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Re: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2022, 10:56:13 AM »
One of the things that has pushed me away from D&D has been how powerful and diverse spellcasters are. I definitely prefer much more focused specialties.

This did cross my mind when I read the topic title. If anything 5e spellcasters are a little too diverse rather than lacking in diversity. Sorcerers and (specially) Warlocks in particular are artificially distinct from wizards, just as an excuse to keep them as separate classes rather than fold them into wizards as a subclass. There's way too many classes in 5e, specially spellcasting classes and specially when the concept of subclasses exists and they could've simply made variants of arcane/divine classes (or even all the warrior classes as well) subclasses of a core class to keep things simple and more manageable.

If anything I would prefer for spellcasting to be standardized and follow consistent core rules, rather than make me keep track of half a dozen variants, with special casting rules and specialized spell lists each. All that crap does is add to bookkeeping and content bloat, making things more difficult to track or improvise, specially from the DM's end. Having numerous spell lists and hundreds of variants of existing spells means that the DM has to constantly stop play to check the book—running through literally hundreds of pages back and forth, checking the class's spell list for available spells, then going through hundred of spell entries—just to find the specific variant the PC or NPC/creature is using now. Even character creation is a freaking pain, when picking your character's known spells

I much prefer the way that Shadowrun handles magic, where magic works the same way for everyone at its core, and everyone has access to the same spells, but differences between traditions (Hermetic vs Shaman of a specific Totem) are handled through special benefits that simply modify how magic for a specific tradition works. Applied to D&D you could use the same core spellcasting system for everyone, but give Clerics bonuses when casting spells tied to their Domains, Druids when using Nature magic, Wizards when casting spells tied to their School specialty, etc.

I do agree with the OP that certain spells can be too limited sometimes, but Steven Mitchell makes a good point about handling enhanced versions of those spells as higher level spell slot versions of the same spell. That's a pretty elegant way to add variety to the existing spells, and allows less limited or more expansive versions without bloating the game up with countless separate variants of the same spell, while also maintaining game balance. Instead, those variations would be found within the core spell itself, making them easier to find and giving you more options for casting existing spells.
Take a look at Shadow of the Demon Lord for a magic system that you might like.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2022, 11:08:37 AM »
Putting a qualification on my earlier comment:  I'm coming at it from the angle that there shouldn't be a huge list of spells, period.  But especially not for any given caster type.  That's part of what leads to things being watered down.  You can either have power or flexibility or some reasonable balance of the two (best course all things considered) but not runaway power and flexibility.  The latter simply doesn't work well for game play, drama, or players making meaningful decisions.

So I'm not advocating for umpteen versions of every spell for a little cosmetic difference.  If that was the plan, would indeed be better to go with the later D&D approach, and then color the spells to suit while leaving the mechanics alone.  On the other hand, having committed to definite limits on scope and number of spells for a given caster type, it becomes easier to put some real bite into some of the spells they have.  It also makes it possible to have those higher level improvements in a given spell. 

Call it the anti-4E power design.  4E had some good ideas, but restating almost exactly the same thing multiple dozens of times with different language was not one of them.

HappyDaze

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Re: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2022, 11:35:47 AM »
Shadow of the Demon Lord has lots of spells, but any particular caster is only likely to learn a handful even at the height of their power (typically Level 10). Also, those spells are thematically linked to certain disciplines, of which most casters only have access to a few.

Soulbound is similar too.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 11:43:11 AM by HappyDaze »

Eric Diaz

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Re: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2022, 01:07:45 PM »
D&D 5E Magic Users are already extremely Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous IMO.

There are about a thousand official spells. For melee weapons, fighting styles, and battlemaster maneuvers... maybe 30-50 of each?

From 12-13 official classes, magic-users are about half: wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, artificers, bards. The others are partial MUs (paladins, rangers) or have MU subclasses.
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SHARK

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Re: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2022, 01:17:23 PM »
Greetings!

Yes, I admit, that I have heavily curated magic spells in D&D. I like Wizards and such to be powerful--or potentially so--but without being superheroes.

That is a problem though that afflicts just about every class in D&D 5E.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2022, 05:29:44 PM »
Use Spheres of Power. http://spheres5e.wikidot.com/

VisionStorm

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Re: Making D&D 5E Magic Users More Diverse, Useful, and Dangerous!
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2022, 11:49:09 AM »
One of the things that has pushed me away from D&D has been how powerful and diverse spellcasters are. I definitely prefer much more focused specialties.

This did cross my mind when I read the topic title. If anything 5e spellcasters are a little too diverse rather than lacking in diversity... *snip*
Take a look at Shadow of the Demon Lord for a magic system that you might like.

DLed a PDF copy yesterday. Haven't gotten to the magic part yet, but interesting stuff in there to farm for ideas or inspiration at least.