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Author Topic: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World  (Read 4060 times)

hedgehobbit

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2021, 02:50:28 PM »
For a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Yet this is exactly what happened when Odysseus traveled to the underworld. He saw exactly what he expected to see. He didn't, for example, see Osiris or Hunhau.

It seems all the replies to my question have all been that you need to limit the PCs to NOT being the heroes of legend (nor possessing the abilities of those heroes) but instead be ordinary people who only hear the legends and never experience them first hand.

ScytheSong

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2021, 03:34:43 PM »
For a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Yet this is exactly what happened when Odysseus traveled to the underworld. He saw exactly what he expected to see. He didn't, for example, see Osiris or Hunhau.

It seems all the replies to my question have all been that you need to limit the PCs to NOT being the heroes of legend (nor possessing the abilities of those heroes) but instead be ordinary people who only hear the legends and never experience them first hand.

You're missing a distinction between Legend and Myth. Legends are the stories we tell about heroes, people we want to emulate. Myths are the stories we tell about the way the world works. You can have legendary heroes who interact with Myth (Odysseus at the mouth of Hade's realm), but they can't overthrow the mythic order -- not even deified mortals like Herakles are able to pull that off.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2021, 03:49:57 PM »
You're missing a distinction between Legend and Myth. Legends are the stories we tell about heroes, people we want to emulate. Myths are the stories we tell about the way the world works. You can have legendary heroes who interact with Myth (Odysseus at the mouth of Hade's realm), but they can't overthrow the mythic order -- not even deified mortals like Herakles are able to pull that off.

"Mythic order" is a good way to think about it.  In most cases, not even the gods can defy it.  That's why Asgard is doomed to fall.  Zeus can overthrow his father because the mythic order said it would happen.  Sure, that drags "fate" into the conversation too, but with a lot of myths, how fate operates is part of the mythic order. 

EOTB

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2021, 03:56:43 PM »
In FRPGs, whenever someone identifies that they hold a truism preventing the emulation of some phenomenon, the first answer is to drop the truism

Such as the idea that there can be only one way to observe the sun, or Hell. 
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S'mon

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2021, 04:00:03 PM »
For a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Yet this is exactly what happened

https://www.worldhistory.org/Bellerophon/#:~:text=Bellerophon%20(aka%20Bellerophontes)%20is%20the,lion%2C%20goat%2C%20and%20snake.

Bellerophon tries to defy the Mythic Order by flying to Heaven/Olympus. He dies.

S'mon

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2021, 04:03:13 PM »
It seems all the replies to my question have all been that you need to limit the PCs to NOT being the heroes of legend (nor possessing the abilities of those heroes) but instead be ordinary people who only hear the legends and never experience them first hand.

You can certainly play a game where the PCs are the legendary heroes, equivalent of Odysseus & co. I'm planning to run Odyssey of the Dragonlords, which does exactly that. But I get the impression that's not really what you want.

Jaeger

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2021, 04:55:01 PM »
DnD is certainly not for everyone.

It is not, but that also raises an interesting question.

In our post-OGL hobby:

Is D&D just the current official Edition?

If you are playing an older edition or a retro-clone, is that D&D?

Were the guys who were playing the E6 variant of 3e which trimmed out a lot of the game breaking spells still playing D&D?

If you choose to curate your spell lists like Shark advocates:


...

NERF MAGIC. Yes, this is indeed what the DM needs to do in their campaign. If the DM is wearing the Viking Hat properly, it is the DM that must first realize that the DM CONTROLS THE CAMPAIGN--the campaign doesn't control the DM. Or more specifically, every aspect of every rule and game system contained within the game--and Magic is one of the campaign's game systems.

... if the DM has in mind to run and develop a certain kind of campaign that isn't "GONZO", then the DM must review the magic system very carefully, and adjudicate with a swift and ruthless hand. Otherwise, level by level, the player characters will embrace the full scope of the magical powers and spells of the game, and any carefully crafted campaign that isn't "GONZO" will be totally trashed in short order.


In my own campaigns, I use much of the magic system, but I heavily adjudicate it. Resurrection spells, raise dead spells, knowledge spells, gate spells, planar travel spells, talking with gods and goddesses like you have them on speed-dial in your cell phone--no. Fuck all that. All that kind of stuff is fucking gone entirely, or otherwise heavily modified. Any of that kind of thing remains very firmly and absolutely within MY hands--not the players....

DM's simply always need to keep these considerations in mind, and put serious thought into them before even beginning a campaign.
...

Is Shark still playing D&D?

Classes, Levels, six ability scores, armor class, and saves...

How much can you cut away and still say you are playing D&D?

« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 05:09:47 PM by Jaeger »
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Shasarak

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2021, 10:41:12 PM »
DnD is certainly not for everyone.

For a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Will they smite you?  Or will you find out that your real Dad was actually Zeus all a long.

Take the Christian story of Abraham arguing with God about sparing Sodom and Gomorrah for example.  Where exactly did God smite Abraham for his presumption of arguing back to God?
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Chris24601

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2021, 11:13:32 PM »
Take the Christian story of Abraham arguing with God about sparing Sodom and Gomorrah for example.  Where exactly did God smite Abraham for his presumption of arguing back to God?
Abraham wasn’t arguing back to God; he was haggling. Big difference.

S'mon

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2021, 01:48:30 AM »
Take the Christian story of Abraham arguing with God about sparing Sodom and Gomorrah for example.  Where exactly did God smite Abraham for his presumption of arguing back to God?
Abraham wasn’t arguing back to God; he was haggling. Big difference.

He also failed!

I was thinking of Bellerophon, the most magic-item laden Greek hero, perishing when he tried to join the gods on Olympus.

Shasarak

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2021, 02:43:56 AM »
Take the Christian story of Abraham arguing with God about sparing Sodom and Gomorrah for example.  Where exactly did God smite Abraham for his presumption of arguing back to God?
Abraham wasn’t arguing back to God; he was haggling. Big difference.

He also failed!

I was thinking of Bellerophon, the most magic-item laden Greek hero, perishing when he tried to join the gods on Olympus.

He argued with God, talked him down from just destroying the city and did not get smited for his hubris.

Not really seeing the failure there.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

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pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

VisionStorm

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2021, 03:03:29 AM »
DnD is certainly not for everyone.

It is not, but that also raises an interesting question.

In our post-OGL hobby:

Is D&D just the current official Edition?

If you are playing an older edition or a retro-clone, is that D&D?

Were the guys who were playing the E6 variant of 3e which trimmed out a lot of the game breaking spells still playing D&D?

If you choose to curate your spell lists like Shark advocates:


...

NERF MAGIC. Yes, this is indeed what the DM needs to do in their campaign. If the DM is wearing the Viking Hat properly, it is the DM that must first realize that the DM CONTROLS THE CAMPAIGN--the campaign doesn't control the DM. Or more specifically, every aspect of every rule and game system contained within the game--and Magic is one of the campaign's game systems.

... if the DM has in mind to run and develop a certain kind of campaign that isn't "GONZO", then the DM must review the magic system very carefully, and adjudicate with a swift and ruthless hand. Otherwise, level by level, the player characters will embrace the full scope of the magical powers and spells of the game, and any carefully crafted campaign that isn't "GONZO" will be totally trashed in short order.


In my own campaigns, I use much of the magic system, but I heavily adjudicate it. Resurrection spells, raise dead spells, knowledge spells, gate spells, planar travel spells, talking with gods and goddesses like you have them on speed-dial in your cell phone--no. Fuck all that. All that kind of stuff is fucking gone entirely, or otherwise heavily modified. Any of that kind of thing remains very firmly and absolutely within MY hands--not the players....

DM's simply always need to keep these considerations in mind, and put serious thought into them before even beginning a campaign.
...

Is Shark still playing D&D?

Classes, Levels, six ability scores, armor class, and saves...

How much can you cut away and still say you are playing D&D?

TBH, I don’t even know. D&D has changed so much over the last two editions, I don’t even know what D&D is anymore. People often bring up ability scores when comparing 5e to earlier editions, as if to say “See? This game has the same ability scores, therefore it is D&D!”

But is it? Is merely the appearance of a thing the same thing as the thing itself when everything behind its inner workings has changed? Is that all D&D is; six ability scores with the same name?

3e, as much as many like to whine about it, at least seemed like a natural evolution of D&D. AC and THAC0 were flipped on their heads, with AC made ascending and THAC0 turned into a modifier so you could just compare your roll to the target’s AC value, which is more intuitive. But the underlying math and mechanics were still mostly the same.

Now characters don’t even have an attack bonus or THAC0 analogue, just a universal Proficiency Bonus, and everyone’s bonus is just the same—for everything! There’s NO difference between Class A and Class B when making ability rolls other than their ability score modifiers and whether or not they have “Proficiency” in whatever the hell they’re rolling.

The game has changed so much people need to point to superficial crap like ability score names to claim it’s the same game. Truth is it’s the same game in name only, cuz the TM holder chose to publish it under the same name.

Naburimannu

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2021, 06:15:24 AM »
For a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Yet this is exactly what happened when Odysseus traveled to the underworld. He saw exactly what he expected to see. He didn't, for example, see Osiris or Hunhau.

It seems all the replies to my question have all been that you need to limit the PCs to NOT being the heroes of legend (nor possessing the abilities of those heroes) but instead be ordinary people who only hear the legends and never experience them first hand.

hedgehobbit, please consider that *everyone* disagreeing with you in this thread means you might need to read more carefully or question some of your premises. I don't understand the first sentence of your response, and "Not being the heroes of legend" is a pretty uncharitable reading of what Shark said - I'm not thinking of any heroes of legend who had the ready access to overwhelmingly effective & legible divination that stock high-level D&D characters might have.


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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2021, 06:06:03 AM »
Well of course someone who sees gods will see the gods that he is familiar with. That's how gods work.
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