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Author Topic: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World  (Read 4059 times)

Greentongue

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2021, 06:24:43 PM »
Some day I'm going to run a setting that turns this on its head:  Some beings with god-like powers have, for inscrutable reasons, decided to create a myth that they maintain their powers via vast technological superiority which is then covered with a patina of fantastical illusion.  The twist is that the fantastical illusion is meant to be seen through.  Then people challenge the gods on that basis and find out the hard way that the technological superiority is the deeper curtain. :D
Something along the lines of "Lord of Light"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2021, 09:37:52 PM »
Been ages since I read "Lord of Light".  I always end up rereading "Lord Demon" instead.  But then, there isn't much Zelazny I haven't read at one time or another.  But yes, something with that kind of twist on expectations appeals to me.  The premise of "A Night in the Lonesome October" would make a great mythic setting for a game, though not one I'd probably want to run.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2021, 08:17:39 AM »
I take it you aren't familiar with Glorantha, then? Because Glorantha actually has everything you're talking about here, and makes it work.

I am very familiar with Glorantha but they sort of cheat here. Firstly, gods in Glorantha exist outside of time so they aren't anything like the real physical beings such as the greek gods. Secondly, GodTime isn't really going back in time, it's more like a pseudo reality that is magically created. So while it appears that the myths are true, they aren't (and, in fact, the events may never have even happened at all).

While Glorantha has an interesting take on myth, it also clearly demonstrates what I am talking about in that creating myths for an RPG with real gods cannot end up with myths that are similar to those in our own history.

I will give Glorantha props for making their world actually flat. Most RPG fantasy game worlds are constructed more like sci-fi settings (with orbital periods, moons, other planets, etc).
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 08:26:17 AM by hedgehobbit »

Zalman

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2021, 09:01:10 AM »
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.

Three things come to mind for me about this:

First, I don't think it's necessarily a problem that only one explanation can be true. In order for that truth to destroy the existence of all false myths regarding the nature of the sun (or whatever), it would have to be generally publicly accepted. And to achieve that, it has to first be generally known. While it may be possible for PCs to become [in]famous enough and powerful enough to (1) gain that knowledge themselves (2) spread the knowledge around until it becomes common enough to supplant myth (3) convince everyone that it's actually true just because the PCs said so ... that sounds like the work of an entire campaign to me. Outside of that deliberate campaign path, it strains my credulity. Heck, it took real humans thousands and thousands of years to get to a point of generally agreement on the matter (and there are still outliers offering counter-myths even today of course).

Second, the problem in general feels like an artifact of the multi-pantheon approach to campaign worlds. If you're creating your own campaign world and want to stress myth, I would suggest starting with a single-pantheon approach, which seems much more akin to how ancient people actually viewed the world around them. A campaign world need not explore every myth across an entire planet. If it's a "Mayan" campaign, for example, it can explore Mayan style myth as if it were the One Accepted Truth. Likewise for any other single set of myths, including an entirely imaginary one.

Third, the problem assumes not only that such a truth exists, but that it's possible to discover. The reason ancient people each had a different myth about the sun is because none of them had a way to verify one "truth" or another (that's what makes it a "myth" after all). Divinations may be that powerful and certain in your game, but I don't think I've seen the like myself. And I think it's entirely reasonable for The Sun to be too hot, or too full of some arbitrary radiation, or too far away to reach with that spell duration, etc., for the PCs to ever to discover its true nature with certainty. Heck, for all we know the Sun could live in another inaccessible dimension and just be "shining through", its true nature forever indiscernible.
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S'mon

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2021, 09:24:50 AM »
I am very familiar with Glorantha but they sort of cheat here. Firstly, gods in Glorantha exist outside of time so they aren't anything like the real physical beings such as the greek gods. Secondly, GodTime isn't really going back in time, it's more like a pseudo reality that is magically created. So while it appears that the myths are true, they aren't (and, in fact, the events may never have even happened at all).

That's just your interpretation. Like I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2021, 11:47:54 AM »
Like I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

I would take that thought even more extreme:  Once you're applying a scientific OR fictional world view to myth, you've already failed.  The most common* mistake a modern makes about "myth" is the immediate assumption of "fiction".  Myth is a story about how the world works.  Could be completely and wildly incorrect.  Could have some strong insights but be off in details.  Could have a grain of truth embedded in a lot of fiction.  Could be 100% true. 


* (The second most common mistake that moderns make is assuming that people alive when the myth was formed don't get those distinctions.  But that's another discussion. )

S'mon

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2021, 12:51:22 PM »
Like I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

I would take that thought even more extreme:  Once you're applying a scientific OR fictional world view to myth, you've already failed.  The most common* mistake a modern makes about "myth" is the immediate assumption of "fiction". 

Yes, you're definitely right.

Not much mainstream RPG authors 'get' myth, certainly not D&D, though 4e ironically did a lot better than prior iterations and I tend to largely stick with its tone in other D&D I run.

Jaeger

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2021, 10:14:24 PM »
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.
...

This is your problem right here.

The PC's should not have the power to "figure it out".

Nerf magic.

Problem solved.
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

Shasarak

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2021, 12:15:35 AM »
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.
...

This is your problem right here.

The PC's should not have the power to "figure it out".

Nerf magic.

Problem solved.

DnD is certainly not for everyone.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

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SHARK

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2021, 01:21:16 AM »
I've tried coming up with myths for my campaign but I could never solve what I call the Apollo Problem: Is the sun the flaming wheel of Apollo's chariot, or is it the flaming eye of Horus, or is it a giant ball of gas floating millions of miles away? Only one of those things can be true, and it's possible for the PCs (through things like divination, crystal balls, or just flying real high to take a look) to figure out which of those tings is the actual truth.
...

This is your problem right here.

The PC's should not have the power to "figure it out".

Nerf magic.

Problem solved.

Greetings!

NERF MAGIC. Yes, this is indeed what the DM needs to do in their campaign. If the DM is wearing the Viking Hat properly, it is the DM that must first realize that the DM CONTROLS THE CAMPAIGN--the campaign doesn't control the DM. Or more specifically, every aspect of every rule and game system contained within the game--and Magic is one of the campaign's game systems.

Certainly, if the DM so chooses to run a totally "GONZO" campaign--allowing the whole magic system to be used unshackled is most certain to produce a very "GONZO" style of campaign milieu. Nothing wrong with that, by the way--if it is your full intention. However, if the DM has in mind to run and develop a certain kind of campaign that isn't "GONZO", then the DM must review the magic system very carefully, and adjudicate with a swift and ruthless hand. Otherwise, level by level, the player characters will embrace the full scope of the magical powers and spells of the game, and any carefully crafted campaign that isn't "GONZO" will be totally trashed in short order.

Thus, we have here examples within the game of numerous knowledge-gathering spells that do serious damage to a whole landscape of culture, history, mythology, religion, and even cosmology. So, yes, those spells must be brutally stripped from the game, so that player characters actually remain mythical, heroic type characters from legends and history alike--instead of demi-godlike superheroes with a vast toolbox of godlike powers at their fingertips, at a moments notice. Such terrible elements create a omniscient, all-pervasive knowledge base of absolute knowledge and certainty.

That dynamic right there is sure to bury any kind of mythical "wonder" in your campaigns.

In my own campaigns, I use much of the magic system, but I heavily adjudicate it. Resurrection spells, raise dead spells, knowledge spells, gate spells, planar travel spells, talking with gods and goddesses like you have them on speed-dial in your cell phone--no. Fuck all that. All that kind of stuff is fucking gone entirely, or otherwise heavily modified. Any of that kind of thing remains very firmly and absolutely within MY hands--not the players. At various times and places, with certain special events, occasions, or magical items, the players may gain temporary access to some kind of power, though such is very limited, and kept tailored to the restraints of good mythical, historical, and narrative standards--which also combine to contribute to how actual *game play* develops as well, not just in the immediate scenario the players find themselves in, but for the entire campaign.

DM's simply always need to keep these considerations in mind, and put serious thought into them before even beginning a campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

S'mon

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2021, 01:44:13 AM »
DnD is certainly not for everyone.

For a traditional mythic feel, you can have a ton of powerful magic items, but if you challenge the gods by trying to fly to Heaven and find out The Truth, they will still smite you for your presumption. The lesson being Hubris and Nemesis.

Of course it's fine to run an American Superheroes type campaign where you can beat up the gods, original D&D is far more Marvel than Myth (or you could say that the American core myth valorises Hubris), and getting a traditional mythic feel requires quite a shift in base assumptions.

S'mon

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2021, 01:51:14 AM »
This is your problem right here.

The PC's should not have the power to "figure it out".

Nerf magic.

Problem solved.

You could do a Runequest Dreamtime/Godtime type approach where each PC who 'figures it out' sees exactly what they expect to see. This works for a setting like Runequest Glorantha where the PCs are living in a world shaped by myth, rather than them being the mythic heroes themselves. If the setting is an actual (eg) Greek mythology setting then all the PCs should already have the same expectations. But if you're running a game set in a magical version of Athens 300 BC then the setting needs to accommodate the differing views of the philosophers, the public, foreigners etc without any one being indisputably The Truth.

S'mon

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2021, 01:57:42 AM »
Like I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

I would take that thought even more extreme:  Once you're applying a scientific OR fictional world view to myth, you've already failed.  The most common* mistake a modern makes about "myth" is the immediate assumption of "fiction". 

It occurs to me that in today's world with the influence of Postmodernism, the Powers That Be tend to think in terms of Narrative, of 'controlling the Narrative' - the fiction about how the world works - which is mixed up with Enlightenment-Scientific thinking. They tend to give lip service to Scientific Truth while using it in the service of Narrative, and are very hostile to Mythic Truth, which tends to get in the way of the Narrative.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2021, 08:43:39 AM »
Like I said, once you're applying a scientific world view to myth, you've already failed.

I would take that thought even more extreme:  Once you're applying a scientific OR fictional world view to myth, you've already failed.  The most common* mistake a modern makes about "myth" is the immediate assumption of "fiction". 

It occurs to me that in today's world with the influence of Postmodernism, the Powers That Be tend to think in terms of Narrative, of 'controlling the Narrative' - the fiction about how the world works - which is mixed up with Enlightenment-Scientific thinking. They tend to give lip service to Scientific Truth while using it in the service of Narrative, and are very hostile to Mythic Truth, which tends to get in the way of the Narrative.

Yes.  Mythic thought cuts at a different angle.  to the Powers That Be (and not just the current ones) it is always dangerous.  Powerful, useful at times, but dangerous to established ideas--like a chainsaw.  Even false myths are dangerous to them, because they exercise a person's imagination in tandem with their "philosophy" of the world.  However, it is not the "Free thought" of the skeptic but something more channeled. 

Which by the way is the one thing I see in the Gloranthan myths that is lacking.  Sure, they have a nod to danger, and real risk to to the characters in trying to manipulate them.  However, in deconstructing how myths work otherwise, they've removed that sense that something is happening with the myth that is out of control.  A myth should have backing it some element of Terror or Awe--in the original meaning of the words, not what a modern would translate into Terrific or Awesome!  Yet another way in which the modern mind struggles with myth because of how mangled is the language in which the modern thinks.

I run more "fantastical" than "mythic" because when I do include a myth, I want to make sure I do it right.  Merely "fantastical" doesn't need to meet that standard to give a feel for the setting.  For example, a talking badger is fantastical.  A talking badger that comes from a mysterious society that have insight into some awesome truth could be mythic. Even if the "truth" is all wrong.   

S'mon

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Re: Making Authentic Myth in Your RPG World
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2021, 10:44:19 AM »
Yes.  Mythic thought cuts at a different angle.  to the Powers That Be (and not just the current ones) it is always dangerous.  Powerful, useful at times, but dangerous to established ideas--like a chainsaw.  Even false myths are dangerous to them, because they exercise a person's imagination in tandem with their "philosophy" of the world.  However, it is not the "Free thought" of the skeptic but something more channeled. 

Which by the way is the one thing I see in the Gloranthan myths that is lacking.  Sure, they have a nod to danger, and real risk to to the characters in trying to manipulate them.  However, in deconstructing how myths work otherwise, they've removed that sense that something is happening with the myth that is out of control.  A myth should have backing it some element of Terror or Awe--in the original meaning of the words, not what a modern would translate into Terrific or Awesome!  Yet another way in which the modern mind struggles with myth because of how mangled is the language in which the modern thinks.

I run more "fantastical" than "mythic" because when I do include a myth, I want to make sure I do it right.  Merely "fantastical" doesn't need to meet that standard to give a feel for the setting.  For example, a talking badger is fantastical.  A talking badger that comes from a mysterious society that have insight into some awesome truth could be mythic. Even if the "truth" is all wrong.

Great post.

Yeah, I think in my campaigns typically the myth-world is something that exists at the edges, just out of the corner of one's eye. If you try to bring it into focus it slides away. But I like the sense that it's there; it makes the world feel much more real.