Quote from: Godsmonkey on October 28, 2021, 02:03:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 28, 2021, 01:27:18 PM

Quote from: Godsmonkey on October 28, 2021, 01:22:24 PM
I tend to use the Savage Worlds idea of "trappings". Let's use a fireball type effect for example:

A mage would cast a ball of flames, much like a typical fireball spell.

A weird scientist might have a device like a giant roman Candle gun that shoots balls that explode into an area effect.

An alchemist might have a phosphorus or similar grenade.

A Psychic might use the power of his mind to agitate molecules to cause an explosion.

In each case, mechanically, they work the same, but all appear very different in game play.

Yes, it is easier when you're dealing with different classes.

Now think of a Wizard in a pseudo medieval Europe setting, he casts spells in a certain way.

Change the setting/world and he should cast different spells (in trappings and maybe beyond) to keep the world internally consistent.

Imagine a World where you're a Maya character, your wizard shouldn't cast Fireball, even if mechanically it's the same spell. IMHO this helps with immersion on the setting, the buy in if you will.

Limiting spells to fit the feel of the game is every bit as important as adjusting the trappings. Possibly more so.

In the case of Mayan based culture. I would assume a blood sacrifice to cast spells for example.

Right, Maya magic needed blood almost always. Not going for an authentic setting, Mayas are the good guys so no human sacrifice (which they did throwing people in to the cenotes, much more civilized than those barbarians from the north (Aztecs I believe they call themselves?).

QuoteYeah, I'm not going for an authentic setting, I'll leave that to Pundit.

I'm going for a fantasy setting.

Yeah, so do not jump to fast into - oh this spell was in classic D&D it must be European - wagon. Just one heart of ginger teenager and your Mayic User should throw three fireballs/day per next 23 days.

QuoteLimiting spells to fit the feel of the game is every bit as important as adjusting the trappings. Possibly more so.

Limiting spells to consistent cosmology is even more important.

QuoteNot going for an authentic setting, Mayas are the good guys so no human sacrifice

Then just use Coyote and Crew

The thing is you can put flavor in the effect or in the process.  I tried for a fairly effects based system for my own rules but with more detail on the process.  One issue you run into is that the symbolism of various materials and acts varies widely between cultures.  For example: is the color of death black or purple?  Raw geometric effects like circles and squares might be replaced with naturalistic boundaries like a field or a village.  If the wizard wants to effect an area, he has to walk about it widershins thirteen times and mark a rune on each cardinal point and so forth.

I think that avoiding singular effects might be the right way to go.  The spell conjures a shower of sparks, 99 pixies, and a flamboyant dragon.  The spell turns rock to mud and leaves holy scripture embossed on the surface.

In my experience the players generally would prefer to blow things up with a gesture but modify the color of the blast.

Quote from: David Johansen on October 28, 2021, 02:29:27 PM
The thing is you can put flavor in the effect or in the process.  I tried for a fairly effects based system for my own rules but with more detail on the process.  One issue you run into is that the symbolism of various materials and acts varies widely between cultures.  For example: is the color of death black or purple?

White?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 28, 2021, 12:19:39 PM
I'm sick of all the magic spells. IMHO it makes zero sense that Elves existing in the world doesn't also imply they have their own distinct magic (I know mechanically it will resemble other magic), with their own distinct flavor, not sure if I showed you guys a spell I modified to feel "Aztec". The ritual is different, the name is different, but in the end it's just a magic missile if you pay attention.

IMHO the changes are enough to give it a different flavor which might help with immersion and to make the game/setting stand out as something other than vanilla fantasy.

What have you done (Besides Pundit's Medieval Authentic) to address this in your games?

Greetings!

Good Morning! Magic. And Magic Spells. Yes, my friend. D&D in particular does present some challenges and problems with that. Pat is zeroed in on part of the problem definitely being the "Generalist Mage"; Magic being everywhere nd prolific in D&D; all Mages having a bazillion spells in &D; and not just the Mages having lots of magic spells, but that they all have a common body of half a dozen optimized spells PER LEVEL that they all have, and that they all have.

All of that is perhaps a lot to chew on. However, it makes Mages overpowered; It makes Mages *generic*; It makes Mages boringly utilitarian and flavourless. It also makes Mages having a pre-determined, optimized template that they simply *must* adhere to, or they aren't Mages that are worth a fuck.

So, in many ways, if the DM is going to make "Magic" more flavourful and interesting, and make Mages actually feel unique, interesting, and flavourful--essentially the exact opposite of what the base rules of D&D do--if the DM wants to accomplish that, then you must in many ways do the opposite.

(1) Get Rid of the "Generalist" Mage. All Mages must and will specialize, in something. A particular school of magic, or a particular style of magic. Enchanter. Necromancer. Dawn Wizard. Loremaster. Whatever.

(2) Throw out ALL THE SPELLS. ALL OF THEM. Now, go back, and carefully look at each one of them, deciding which spells that Player Characters will have access to, and which spells they WON'T HAVE ACCESS TO. You, the DM, of course can access and use whatever you want. NPC's, villains, they all don't need to follow the same rules that Player Characters must adhere to and abide by. Review the spell lists, level by level, and create new spell lists composed of appropriate spells.

For example, I got rid of all Gate spells, plane-traveling spells, Teleportation spells, and Fly spells. No plane hopping, no characters jumping around like fucking Star Trek. No players just snapping their fingers and leaping into the air and flying for hours at a time like a fucking bird. NOPE. All that is fucking GONE.

No Speak with Dead, or Telepathy spells, either. Unless of course, you are a Necromancer, or a Demonologist. There's definitely benefits to kneeling to the Dark Side.

That means that I can also run all the investigative adventures I want, while being unconcerned with some stupid Generalist Mage having easy access to a dozen magical information spells that totally wreck any kind of puzzle adventure or investigative adventure you might contemplate running, entirely pointless. Cut all that shit out! Player's don't NEED ACCESS to all power, all communication, all investigation or knowledge spells, or uber fast travel spells. NO. Just fucking NO, man.

Suddenly, a Player Character somehow getting their hands on a Enchanted Cloak of Giant Eagle Feathers or a Cloak of the Majestic Eagle, whatever, that allows them to fly once per day, or three times per day, for 5 minutes duration, or whatever, well, that magic item becomes rather d ;Damned special, now doesn't it?

First and foremost, you have to trim the Magic spell lists down to what you want, and what is good for a campaign--not what gives Players absolute instant powers to do everything, know everything, and go anywhere, whenever they want, with a full sense of entitlement.

That is an essential, and foundational process.

That is also what I do in the World of Thandor.

It is also worthwhile to think about changing other aspects of flavour. Material ingredients. Dancing, or other rituals that must be performed. Particular costumes, or other ritual clothing, and special, ritual items.

I also like to change the casting times. Lots of spells require more tan one round to cast. They might require a 10 minute or hour long ritual. Whatever. That also yes, makes many spellcasters not always ideal or very useful in combat. Well, that's ok, you know?

People bitch about "Well, I want Magic to feel special and MYSTERIOUS! I want magic in the game to be like in mythology or the old Conan stories!"

Well, it is important to ask the right questions. What was magic like in the old Conan stories? What is magic like in old mythology? How do those elements differ from the D&D game's approach to magic? So, it therefore boils down to a process of cutting out all of the elements, the rules, and applications that don't make it like mythology or Conan stories; and changing or adding in the elements, rules, and applications that DO make magic more consistent with mythology and old Conan stories.

However, be prepared for the game and the game campaign to be a very different thing from the standard in the rule books.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 28, 2021, 12:46:28 PM

Quote from: Pat on October 28, 2021, 12:36:05 PM
Limited spell lists.

One of the biggest contributions to the generic uniformity of magic in D&D was the creation of a generalist mage in 2nd edition, and the assumption that real wizards can potentially cast any arcane spell. If you want illusionists to feel different from death masters and incantatrices, and if you want elven magic to feel very different from dwarven magic, then create new custom classes with little or no overlap in spells, and they'll feel more distinct. This will also encourage a wider range of magics in the game, since players can't just cherry pick the same best spells every time.

The Basic D&D approach of 8 or 12 spells per spell level for the primary spellcasting classes, and 6 or even 4 for the secondary spellcasting classes, is a step in the right direction. But you don't even need that many spells for viable spellcasting classes. Ditch the generalist magic-user entirely, and create a handful of spell lists for different magical traditions. Try 4 spells per spell level. With a mix of offensive and utility spells, that's enough for variety and real choices, and it's constrained enough that it's easy for the DM to create new classes on the fly. Specialty casters (like bladesingers) might have only 2 per level.

For a bonus, you could give each new custom class a different method of casting spells. Some might use spell books, some might hang spells, others might casting spells by dancing instead of speech, others might use words of power, and so on. But this is less important than the limited spell lists.

Yep, you obviously need to dispense the generalist wizard or risk all the work being in vain.

Reducing the spell number per level is not a bad idea since it also makes my work easier. 

Methods of casting had occurred to me, mainly because it makes no sense to have all MU follow the same script.

Why would a Cleric need to memorize anything in the morning? Why can't he/she just pray to her deity for a miracle? Roll to know how the deity answered, starting with 55% chance of success or something like that.

You could make a good argument that priests shouldn't have spells, at all. Use some other mechanic for miracles. Certain priests gain (permanent) boons like talking to animals or some kind of persuasion. Otherwise, they have a general "divine intervention" or "I'm just that damn holy" ability, similar to the slots per day turn undead attempts in some editions, except instead of just turning undead they have a limited but themed set of of abilities they can invoke by prayer or beseeching their god. In some ways, more like many conceptions of psionics instead of D&D magic (broad powers that can be invoked at will but eventually run out, instead of a large set of narrow powers that have to be prepped). If the request isn't in the general interests of the religion (define this broadly, not narrowly; the point is to exclude things that are really inappropriate not to second guess every action of the PC), or if the priest has been bad, there might be a chance of failure (maybe something like the miss chance for concealment in 3e).

GURPS Divine Favor has a patron system where there are no memorized spells.   Prayers are submitted as petitions directly to the deity and a reaction roll determines how they take the request.  Multiple petitions accumulate negatives on the reaction roll.  Eventually you will irritate the god in question for the day. You can also gain specific Learned Prayers in this system, representing your character just having an open license for a specific effect.

I hope to use this in a game loosely based on Exalted's Creation where monks of the Immaculate Order don't pray to specific gods, but rather to Heaven as a general source of miracles.  The reaction roll would be how busy the celestial bureaucracy is that day or how overworked the minor god that gets your request is.  Heaven has a lot of shit to do, they don't have time for every little thing.


---


There are also interesting options in the Ars Magica  Realms of Power supplements: Divine, Faerie, Infernal.   These systems are all similar mechanically, but they have very different things they have control over and ways to get to it. 

In order to work Miracles, somebody serving the Divine may Invoke God and the saints or angels directly, Meditate to gain insight and wisdom, or improve your Purity to rise above the material world and thus affect change in it.

Trying to pull power from the Faerie Realm involves trying to convince spirits and gods to lend you power through Evocation, convincing your target to accept the power through Enchanting them, or using your raw Empathy for the world of the Fae to channel the powers directly.

Infernal magic is called Maleficia  and you either have to indulge in Debauchery as a ritual, or use Incantations in order to channel the powers of Hell.

There is also a supplement called Hedge Magic which has Elementalism, Folk Witches, Gruagachan (Pictish magic), Learned Magicians (charms and amulets, mainly), Nightwalkers (Benedante, astral projection types), and Viktir (Norse runic magi).

Hmmm. How would magic taste? Strawberries?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 28, 2021, 02:56:42 PM
Hmmm. How would magic taste? Strawberries?

Red, it tastes red.

Quote from: Wrath of God on October 28, 2021, 02:12:09 PM

QuoteYeah, I'm not going for an authentic setting, I'll leave that to Pundit.

I'm going for a fantasy setting.

Yeah, so do not jump to fast into - oh this spell was in classic D&D it must be European - wagon. Just one heart of ginger teenager and your Mayic User should throw three fireballs/day per next 23 days.

QuoteLimiting spells to fit the feel of the game is every bit as important as adjusting the trappings. Possibly more so.

Limiting spells to consistent cosmology is even more important.

QuoteNot going for an authentic setting, Mayas are the good guys so no human sacrifice

Then just use Coyote and Crew

Not giving my money to racists.

Very different to postulate a world where you adventure well before the decay of the Mayan Empire, which happened before the arrival of the spaniards, than to postulate europeans don't exist.

Edited to add:

Where do I say spell X was in classic D&D therefore it's European?

It's what you find in the pseudo European setting of vanilla D&D, therefore it's something most people associate with said vanilla setting.

IF Magic is real it makes it a very important part of the setting's flavor.

You can change the Castles for Pyramids and still fail at achieving a different feel because you retained the exact same spells.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 28, 2021, 03:01:34 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 28, 2021, 02:56:42 PM
Hmmm. How would magic taste? Strawberries?

Red, it tastes red.

I've heard earth magic tastes like Patchouli and bong water.

Quote from: SHARK on October 28, 2021, 02:32:41 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 28, 2021, 12:19:39 PM
I'm sick of all the magic spells. IMHO it makes zero sense that Elves existing in the world doesn't also imply they have their own distinct magic (I know mechanically it will resemble other magic), with their own distinct flavor, not sure if I showed you guys a spell I modified to feel "Aztec". The ritual is different, the name is different, but in the end it's just a magic missile if you pay attention.

IMHO the changes are enough to give it a different flavor which might help with immersion and to make the game/setting stand out as something other than vanilla fantasy.

What have you done (Besides Pundit's Medieval Authentic) to address this in your games?

Greetings!

Good Morning! Magic. And Magic Spells. Yes, my friend. D&D in particular does present some challenges and problems with that. Pat is zeroed in on part of the problem definitely being the "Generalist Mage"; Magic being everywhere nd prolific in D&D; all Mages having a bazillion spells in &D; and not just the Mages having lots of magic spells, but that they all have a common body of half a dozen optimized spells PER LEVEL that they all have, and that they all have.

All of that is perhaps a lot to chew on. However, it makes Mages overpowered; It makes Mages *generic*; It makes Mages boringly utilitarian and flavourless. It also makes Mages having a pre-determined, optimized template that they simply *must* adhere to, or they aren't Mages that are worth a fuck.

So, in many ways, if the DM is going to make "Magic" more flavourful and interesting, and make Mages actually feel unique, interesting, and flavourful--essentially the exact opposite of what the base rules of D&D do--if the DM wants to accomplish that, then you must in many ways do the opposite.

(1) Get Rid of the "Generalist" Mage. All Mages must and will specialize, in something. A particular school of magic, or a particular style of magic. Enchanter. Necromancer. Dawn Wizard. Loremaster. Whatever.

(2) Throw out ALL THE SPELLS. ALL OF THEM. Now, go back, and carefully look at each one of them, deciding which spells that Player Characters will have access to, and which spells they WON'T HAVE ACCESS TO. You, the DM, of course can access and use whatever you want. NPC's, villains, they all don't need to follow the same rules that Player Characters must adhere to and abide by. Review the spell lists, level by level, and create new spell lists composed of appropriate spells.

For example, I got rid of all Gate spells, plane-traveling spells, Teleportation spells, and Fly spells. No plane hopping, no characters jumping around like fucking Star Trek. No players just snapping their fingers and leaping into the air and flying for hours at a time like a fucking bird. NOPE. All that is fucking GONE.

No Speak with Dead, or Telepathy spells, either. Unless of course, you are a Necromancer, or a Demonologist. There's definitely benefits to kneeling to the Dark Side.

That means that I can also run all the investigative adventures I want, while being unconcerned with some stupid Generalist Mage having easy access to a dozen magical information spells that totally wreck any kind of puzzle adventure or investigative adventure you might contemplate running, entirely pointless. Cut all that shit out! Player's don't NEED ACCESS to all power, all communication, all investigation or knowledge spells, or uber fast travel spells. NO. Just fucking NO, man.

Suddenly, a Player Character somehow getting their hands on a Enchanted Cloak of Giant Eagle Feathers or a Cloak of the Majestic Eagle, whatever, that allows them to fly once per day, or three times per day, for 5 minutes duration, or whatever, well, that magic item becomes rather d ;Damned special, now doesn't it?

First and foremost, you have to trim the Magic spell lists down to what you want, and what is good for a campaign--not what gives Players absolute instant powers to do everything, know everything, and go anywhere, whenever they want, with a full sense of entitlement.

That is an essential, and foundational process.

That is also what I do in the World of Thandor.

It is also worthwhile to think about changing other aspects of flavour. Material ingredients. Dancing, or other rituals that must be performed. Particular costumes, or other ritual clothing, and special, ritual items.

I also like to change the casting times. Lots of spells require more tan one round to cast. They might require a 10 minute or hour long ritual. Whatever. That also yes, makes many spellcasters not always ideal or very useful in combat. Well, that's ok, you know?

People bitch about "Well, I want Magic to feel special and MYSTERIOUS! I want magic in the game to be like in mythology or the old Conan stories!"

Well, it is important to ask the right questions. What was magic like in the old Conan stories? What is magic like in old mythology? How do those elements differ from the D&D game's approach to magic? So, it therefore boils down to a process of cutting out all of the elements, the rules, and applications that don't make it like mythology or Conan stories; and changing or adding in the elements, rules, and applications that DO make magic more consistent with mythology and old Conan stories.

However, be prepared for the game and the game campaign to be a very different thing from the standard in the rule books.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yeah, in my Maya game Wizards/Priests do have access to the same weapons as the Warrior, they just aren't as good at using them with the exeption of the sling since that was the most widely used way of hunting.

In Maya mythology the Wizard is a Priest, I'm including a Shaman type to give it some different spells powers, like transforming into a Jaguar once per day for a certain ammount of time.

Evil wizards would use an animal/human skin/pelt to transform into something else, the Shaman doesn't need this but he also doesn't have the ability to cast curses by pointing at you.

I hear you regarding investigative superpowers, I HATE the Lore ability of the Bards, but then again I hate the Bard as a whole.

Yep, cutting down the spells is a must, start from zero and see what works for your world.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 28, 2021, 12:46:28 PMWhy would a Cleric need to memorize anything in the morning? Why can't he/she just pray to her deity for a miracle? Roll to know how the deity answered, starting with 55% chance of success or something like that.

For the purposes of the original game this is to impose a tactical choice in conflict assets: the whole point of choosing the spells you can cast at the beginning of the day is the possibility of picking ones that will turn out not to be useful for the challenges faced, thus requiring the player either to improvise in how he uses what he does have or requiring the entire party to find another approach.

This is also why an amazing amount of RPG-adapted magical "traditions" will include spells that can reproduce the effects of modern artillery and medicine, despite the historically-attributed powers of any culture's traditions having nothing like that: the "flavour" of a magic system is always going to take a back seat to what actually can and can't be done with it, in terms of accomplishing players' in-game goals (which are almost always to win fights and gain treasure, however those are defined).

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on October 28, 2021, 04:32:01 PM
This is also why an amazing amount of RPG-adapted magical "traditions" will include spells that can reproduce the effects of modern artillery and medicine, despite the historically-attributed powers of any culture's traditions having nothing like that: the "flavour" of a magic system is always going to take a back seat to what actually can and can't be done with it, in terms of accomplishing players' in-game goals (which are almost always to win fights and gain treasure, however those are defined).

That reminds me of another approach: Get rid of all the artillery magic.

There are certainly examples of powerful magic in myth and legend, like that used by Talesin or Atlantes. But it's not point and shoot explosions. Most magic should be more subtle, and really powerful or overt effects should take longer.

From a game standpoint, the basic problem with wizard is they're too good at everything. They have the greatest offensive power, often by an absurd magnitude (10d6 automatic damage in a 40' area beats 1d8 against a single opponent, even without considering the additional indignity of a to hit roll). But they're also the jacks-of-all trades, able to do almost anything conceivable if they have the right spell. This utility far surpasses the far more limited and grounded by realism limits of things like thief skills. The only downside of mages is degree of fragility (which can be compensated for with magic), and limited uses (spells known or spell slots). Both of which aren't really limits on the wizards, but limits on the party (the other party members serve as meat shields and the whole party retreats once the magic-user is running low on spells).

It's a terrible design, though it's so deeply ingrained that trying to change it is going to be like pulling teeth. But if you're up for it, an alternate approach is to turn wizards from combat masters into a different type of utility class. They're the wise men and wise women, able to do subtle things. They can perform cures and exorcisms, influence people, speak prophecy. They're skilled, and know and can deduce things, and point to solutions. If given time, they can perform greater works, like bridges of quasisubstance, or pits of miasma. But they can't do much once steel is drawn, and mostly act in a supporting role in combat, with minor tweaks and tricks. They have to be played smart with forethought, instead of blasting. This matches a lot of fiction, where wizards become a lot less effective when the swords come out.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on October 28, 2021, 04:32:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 28, 2021, 12:46:28 PMWhy would a Cleric need to memorize anything in the morning? Why can't he/she just pray to her deity for a miracle? Roll to know how the deity answered, starting with 55% chance of success or something like that.

For the purposes of the original game this is to impose a tactical choice in conflict assets: the whole point of choosing the spells you can cast at the beginning of the day is the possibility of picking ones that will turn out not to be useful for the challenges faced, thus requiring the player either to improvise in how he uses what he does have or requiring the entire party to find another approach.

This is also why an amazing amount of RPG-adapted magical "traditions" will include spells that can reproduce the effects of modern artillery and medicine, despite the historically-attributed powers of any culture's traditions having nothing like that: the "flavour" of a magic system is always going to take a back seat to what actually can and can't be done with it, in terms of accomplishing players' in-game goals (which are almost always to win fights and gain treasure, however those are defined).

Not giving the MU/Cleric modern artillery/medicine but giving them other stuff also nerfs them, there are ways to restrict them from being Dr. Fate from day one while giving them Flavor.

At least IMHO.

I do agree that in OD&D it's done for tactical reasons, after all it just spawned from Wargames.

I'm attempting to achieve the balance I'm talking about, enough power to be useful, not so much you're a one man army while giving the magic a distinct flavor.