A huge disconnect between pre 3rd Edition D&D and later on is how magic items are treated.

In earlier versions of the game, Magic Items were treated as a very rare and potentially irreplaceable thing. One could not simply buy a scroll of the spell they wanted or replace their Wand of Fireballs. One wouldn't really be able to sell them either; while one could give a magic item a cost (at least I think they did) they weren't supposed to be sold due to their rarity. Magic items were supposed to be special, something that players would have a story to tell when asked how they got it. A family friend who played a lot of D&D back in the day said as such "The point of magic items is to keep the players invested in the game".

3rd did away with this notion. The idea was that magic items would be just another tool in an adventurer's arsenal. One could, in a sufficiently sized city and wallet, buy any magic item they needed. Players were expected to buy, sell and potentially alter magical items. For example, one could pay for their +1 Longsword to be turned into a +2 Longsword. There was a heavy focus on making magic items by the players; the severe restrictions (especially from 2nd) were lifted; now one just needed to have a certain GP value in materials, certain feats and be willing to give up a certain amount of experience points.

Earlier versions were more restrictive with creation, often requiring major quests to make magical items to help balance. Though making magic items would grant Experience Points (which I think they should) making them permanent would require casting Permanency and losing a point of constitution. Which was an incredibly steep price to pay. Unless you were making scrolls or potions.

I can see the appeal of both systems. I like the idea of being able to craft magical items (they need to come from somewhere!) but I could easily understand (and have seen, in some cases) what happens if you let it go overboard. A limiting system is needed, naturally. One idea I had was the idea of a "Mana" stat which you would damage to create magic items, forcing an artificer to wait a few days to recover that magical energy.

Anyway I wanted to get some opinions on this. Mostly for the sake of talking, but also for game design purposes. Experience helps with that.

In play, AD&D had the most magic items because NPCs were commonly bedecked with them according to the DMG. Killing a rival adventurer party would get you a huge haul. 3e and 4e made items a build resource, which is a different issue - a 3e PC would typically have fewer items than a 1e PC, but could tailor them to their 'build' through free purchase.

5e has fewer items by default but leaves it up to the GM, I've taken several different approaches in various campaigns. In my main sandbox game it's pretty common for PCs to craft 'Uncommon' items, especially +1 weapons and +1 shields. A Warlock recently crafted his own +1 Rod of the Pact Keeper. This game has slow advancement - highest level PC just hit 7th and he's been around for years - and no Feats or Multiclassing, so magic items help compensate for the lower power level.

My view is that commonplace magic isn't really magic. It's more like altered physics. It's predictable like physics is. When you were a kid and you went to see a stage magician, odds are you were fascinated, bewildered, and possibly even scared. If everyone and their brother did stage magician tricks, they would become mundane by definition.

I prefer magic to be weird and terrifying. I like magic items to be unique. You can make magic items if you have the knowledge and tools, but that is also not without danger. I hate generic +1 weapons. They are lazy and dull, and besides (mounting my hobby horse now) a +1 bonus is statistically meaningless. Instead you find a +3 ritually purified cultist's dagger that gives you haunting dreams. You cannot make this item unless you are a cultist and learn the proper steps, and most likely there is only one such dagger in the entire world.

Magick Shoppes? No way. You need to find the wizard over the mountains, hope he doesn't enslave you, and beg him for help. Even then, can you afford the cost? Because he doesn't care for silver.

Anyway, that's my thesis. Commonplace magic is not magic; it's mundane.

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 08, 2021, 11:53:46 PM
A huge disconnect between pre 3rd Edition D&D and later on is how magic items are treated.

I have very consistently through multiple 5e campaigns under different DMs found magic items are more rare and less for sale than in AD&D 1e.

Pricing is specifically not listed for magic items in 5e, and magic items are not assumed for the power curve of PCs in the core rules.

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 09, 2021, 09:28:45 AM
My view is that commonplace magic isn't really magic. It's more like altered physics. It's predictable like physics is. When you were a kid and you went to see a stage magician, odds are you were fascinated, bewildered, and possibly even scared. If everyone and their brother did stage magician tricks, they would become mundane by definition.

I prefer magic to be weird and terrifying. I like magic items to be unique. You can make magic items if you have the knowledge and tools, but that is also not without danger. I hate generic +1 weapons. They are lazy and dull, and besides (mounting my hobby horse now) a +1 bonus is statistically meaningless. Instead you find a +3 ritually purified cultist's dagger that gives you haunting dreams. You cannot make this item unless you are a cultist and learn the proper steps, and most likely there is only one such dagger in the entire world.

Magick Shoppes? No way. You need to find the wizard over the mountains, hope he doesn't enslave you, and beg him for help. Even then, can you afford the cost? Because he doesn't care for silver.

Anyway, that's my thesis. Commonplace magic is not magic; it's mundane.

I know where you come and where you're going but I have to disagree a little bit about Ye Olde Magick Shoppe

There should totally be one of those in every single town of a certain population, but it turns out it's the Homeopathy of the world: Everywhere, much publisized, useless really.

Or in big cities there's a Shoppe where some magical ingredients can be bought, of course most of the ingredients aren't magical per se, and those that are can't be used raw (without some form of preparation by a wizard) and get the expected outcome (they are poisonous, will give you horns, etc.).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 09, 2021, 12:34:36 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 09, 2021, 09:28:45 AM
My view is that commonplace magic isn't really magic. It's more like altered physics. It's predictable like physics is. When you were a kid and you went to see a stage magician, odds are you were fascinated, bewildered, and possibly even scared. If everyone and their brother did stage magician tricks, they would become mundane by definition.

I prefer magic to be weird and terrifying. I like magic items to be unique. You can make magic items if you have the knowledge and tools, but that is also not without danger. I hate generic +1 weapons. They are lazy and dull, and besides (mounting my hobby horse now) a +1 bonus is statistically meaningless. Instead you find a +3 ritually purified cultist's dagger that gives you haunting dreams. You cannot make this item unless you are a cultist and learn the proper steps, and most likely there is only one such dagger in the entire world.

Magick Shoppes? No way. You need to find the wizard over the mountains, hope he doesn't enslave you, and beg him for help. Even then, can you afford the cost? Because he doesn't care for silver.

Anyway, that's my thesis. Commonplace magic is not magic; it's mundane.

I know where you come and where you're going but I have to disagree a little bit about Ye Olde Magick Shoppe

There should totally be one of those in every single town of a certain population, but it turns out it's the Homeopathy of the world: Everywhere, much publisized, useless really.

Or in big cities there's a Shoppe where some magical ingredients can be bought, of course most of the ingredients aren't magical per se, and those that are can't be used raw (without some form of preparation by a wizard) and get the expected outcome (they are poisonous, will give you horns, etc.).

I don't like the idea of Magic Shops that have permanent items like Flame Tongue Swords in them. Why would anyone go slay dragons a week's journey away when you could go down the street with your buddies and knock over the mid-level Wizard's little corner store for ten times the haul? No, you would need an arms race between the thieves and the owner and the DM pulling some "because Fuck You' level stuff.


But shops for components and stuff? A few potions at best?  Sure.

As for plain "+ number" items? (Mace+2, Dagger +1, etc.) Do as you will, but if items are rare enough that those items have backstories and names, I find it kind of cooler.

Quote from: DM_Curt on November 09, 2021, 12:57:29 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 09, 2021, 12:34:36 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on November 09, 2021, 09:28:45 AM
My view is that commonplace magic isn't really magic. It's more like altered physics. It's predictable like physics is. When you were a kid and you went to see a stage magician, odds are you were fascinated, bewildered, and possibly even scared. If everyone and their brother did stage magician tricks, they would become mundane by definition.

I prefer magic to be weird and terrifying. I like magic items to be unique. You can make magic items if you have the knowledge and tools, but that is also not without danger. I hate generic +1 weapons. They are lazy and dull, and besides (mounting my hobby horse now) a +1 bonus is statistically meaningless. Instead you find a +3 ritually purified cultist's dagger that gives you haunting dreams. You cannot make this item unless you are a cultist and learn the proper steps, and most likely there is only one such dagger in the entire world.

Magick Shoppes? No way. You need to find the wizard over the mountains, hope he doesn't enslave you, and beg him for help. Even then, can you afford the cost? Because he doesn't care for silver.

Anyway, that's my thesis. Commonplace magic is not magic; it's mundane.

I know where you come and where you're going but I have to disagree a little bit about Ye Olde Magick Shoppe

There should totally be one of those in every single town of a certain population, but it turns out it's the Homeopathy of the world: Everywhere, much publisized, useless really.

Or in big cities there's a Shoppe where some magical ingredients can be bought, of course most of the ingredients aren't magical per se, and those that are can't be used raw (without some form of preparation by a wizard) and get the expected outcome (they are poisonous, will give you horns, etc.).

I don't like the idea of Magic Shops that have permanent items like Flame Tongue Swords in them. Why would anyone go slay dragons a week's journey away when you could go down the street with your buddies and knock over the mid-level Wizard's little corner store for ten times the haul? No, you would need an arms race between the thieves and the owner and the DM pulling some "because Fuck You' level stuff.


But shops for components and stuff? A few potions at best?  Sure.

As for plain "+ number" items? (Mace+2, Dagger +1, etc.) Do as you will, but if items are rare enough that those items have backstories and names, I find it kind of cooler.

Go read my post again, carefully.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 09, 2021, 01:42:14 PM

Go read my post again, carefully.

I wasn't trying to be be snarky to you. Sorry if I came off that way.

Cheers.

This ought to be determined by the setting, not the edition. If you are playing in a high fantasy setting, there is nothing wrong with a character waking up in the morning and brushing her teeth with a +2 toothbrush she bought at Magic Mart. I avoid those settings, but it's just personal preference.

I generally run low fantasy settings where magic is either rare or dangerous. In a rare setting, there might be one or two magic items in the whole party. They are things of legend and never bought or sold. In my sword & sorcery settings, magic is evil and corrupting. Every item has a negative aspect or penalty. A sword might be +2 to hit, but -4 on saving throws because, in quiet moments, it whispers to you of your doom. I have players in my current campaign who typically destroy magic items rather than pick them up.

From a design perspective, if that's what the OP is considering, my preference is for a game to keep its mechanics separate from its setting. Put them in separate books. That just makes everything easier if I don't like the default setting (and I usually don't).

Quote from: DM_Curt on November 09, 2021, 02:03:28 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 09, 2021, 01:42:14 PM

Go read my post again, carefully.

I wasn't trying to be be snarky to you. Sorry if I came off that way.

Cheers.

I don't mind the snark, but you seem to agree with me while arguing against me.

If magic is real I would expect con men to be selling "magic" items, therefore such shops should exist, but the stuff they sell doesn't hold any magic.

Like with Medicine vs Pseudo-Medicine.

Hell we have people IRL selling/buying "magic" potions, candles, rituals, etc. And there's no real wizards on our world.

As we have people selling/buying every type of pseudomedicine you can imagine and then some.

Why wouldn't those same con men exist in the game world? I would expect them to exist, maybe as travelling snake oil salesmen.

Greetings!

Hmmm...yeah, mythology, Fantasy Literature, pop fantasy literature, all of that may embrace varying ideas that "magic" or "Magic Items" are all rare and unusual, but that is not how things were pushed in old school D&D.

Individual people's game worlds, sure.

The assumed campaign settings in Dragon Magazine, all of the published official Adventure  Modules, virtually without exception, is that magic items are enormously plentiful. They are prevalent, and everywhere.

Even WITHIN the sacred rules texts themselves, such as the Dungeon Master's Guide, by Gygax, the rules for Dungeon Parties, NPC Adventuring Groups, bands in the wilderness, and so on, create parties of adventurers that are decorated like Christmas Trees with magic items.

Ergo, when your Player characters encounter such NPC groups--having such happen fairly often, just from that *alone*--your player characters will soon also be like Christmas Trees, festooned with magic items.

You will have so much magical items, after you outfit yourself with the elite gear, and fully kit out a henchman or two--you will still have enough left over magic items that yeah, you probably could open up a Magical Walmart shop in a large city, and be very profitable. Honestly, such a reality is derived from actual implications within the game rules themselves, and the officially published adventure modules and other materials.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The party in the game I'm running has been able to seek out magic items for purchase, but usually the items are either (a) expendables, like potions, or (b) very, very strange. They also run the risk of (c) accidentally buying a cursed item. They've been lucky... so far.

(rubs hands together and grins)

Quote from: PsyXypher on November 08, 2021, 11:53:46 PM
A huge disconnect between pre 3rd Edition D&D and later on is how magic items are treated.

It was strange to me that in ADnD there were creatures that you could not even damage unless you had a magical item (and even some that needed +2 or higher) and yet magical items were almost impossible to make.  Then changing to 3e you could finally start to make items and they became less needed to damage creatures and then finally with 4e items were so easy to make (1 hour downtime) but were just not needed.

Hmmm, yeah. I don't think "real" magic items should be in shops.  It makes more sense for them to be held by churches/temples as relics in storage or as part of use in rituals.  As well as for royalty and leaders to be using them for personal protection, as well as part of their treasury, or to loan them out to trusted allies or subordinates as a sign of trust or for certain goals. Then of course NPC adventurers/guild leaders/etc would be another place where magic items would accumulate .

As for players "selling" magical items, it would make more sense to trade or donate these items to those institutions, royalty, religious groups, or even other NPC adventurers in return for some favors or perhaps different magical items. I don't think the modern "liquidate for cash" idea fits well with magical items.

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on November 09, 2021, 04:23:32 PM
Hmmm, yeah. I don't think "real" magic items should be in shops.  It makes more sense for them to be held by churches/temples as relics in storage or as part of use in rituals.  As well as for royalty and leaders to be using them for personal protection, as well as part of their treasury, or to loan them out to trusted allies or subordinates as a sign of trust or for certain goals. Then of course NPC adventurers/guild leaders/etc would be another place where magic items would accumulate .

As for players "selling" magical items, it would make more sense to trade or donate these items to those institutions, royalty, religious groups, or even other NPC adventurers in return for some favors or perhaps different magical items. I don't think the modern "liquidate for cash" idea fits well with magical items.

My take on it is that if there's to be a shop in games where magic items are rare, it should be a borderline black market type affair; not even because of its legality, but because of possible inherent dangers in the business. Magic items are rare, valuable and hard to make, and thus a delicious target for thieves. If your Wizard is selling or buying magic items, he probably has some tough bodyguards and some very nasty magical wards preventing theft.

Imagine those anti-theft tags, but its Explosive Runes. That'd be funny.