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Author Topic: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]  (Read 2292 times)

GeekyBugle

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For one of my games I'm going for a non-Vancian magic system, part of the changes I'm doing is dividing the magic into White (No corruption), Gray (Moderate Corruption) & Black (Full Corruption).

This means White gives you zero corruption points, Gray gives you half the corruption points and Black Gives you all the corruption points. White = Zero Corruption, Gray = 1/2 Corruption & Black = 1 Corruption.

This is (or was) going to be tied to the type of spell: Healing, Protecting, etc spells = White, while Harmful spells = Black & Gray fell on the gray zone inbetween. But...

What if you use human sacrifice in your healing spells?

So, Magic is but a tool, Type of spell does matter, but Intent and means also matter, maybe even more in most cases.

So my question is this:

What type of spells would you guys say ARE definetely Black magic regardless of the intent/means?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

horsesoldier

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2021, 01:50:51 PM »
Raising the dead
Manipulating free will
Causing decay, blight
Poison
Delaying/impeding natural healing, causing deformities
Curses/hexes/evil eye
Unnatural application of natural law--a hand becomes a crab claw or something like that

That's what comes to mind for me. Their various permutations can cover a lot of different possibilities.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2021, 01:57:29 PM »
Raising the dead
Manipulating free will
Causing decay, blight
Poison
Delaying/impeding natural healing, causing deformities
Curses/hexes/evil eye
Unnatural application of natural law--a hand becomes a crab claw or something like that

That's what comes to mind for me. Their various permutations can cover a lot of different possibilities.

Thanks, I had thought of the first two, but the rest are a welcome addition I hadn't thopught about.

A couple of questions:

Delaying natural healing... What if allowing the healing is bad because it would mean you heal wrong or have to undergo a very dangerous procedure?

A hand becoming a Crab claw... What if they asked you to do it?

One more
Free will... What if they asked you to manipulate their free will to kick a habit? To quit smoking for example?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

HappyDaze

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2021, 03:27:40 PM »
Raising the dead
Manipulating free will
Causing decay, blight
Poison
Delaying/impeding natural healing, causing deformities
Curses/hexes/evil eye
Unnatural application of natural law--a hand becomes a crab claw or something like that

That's what comes to mind for me. Their various permutations can cover a lot of different possibilities.
When you say "Raising the dead" are you talking about bringing the dead back to life (via resurrection, reincarnation, etc.) or about the creation of undead?

horsesoldier

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2021, 03:41:38 PM »
Raising the dead
Manipulating free will
Causing decay, blight
Poison
Delaying/impeding natural healing, causing deformities
Curses/hexes/evil eye
Unnatural application of natural law--a hand becomes a crab claw or something like that

That's what comes to mind for me. Their various permutations can cover a lot of different possibilities.
When you say "Raising the dead" are you talking about bringing the dead back to life (via resurrection, reincarnation, etc.) or about the creation of undead?

I would say both, but that would depend on the world building at hand.

horsesoldier

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2021, 03:50:07 PM »
Raising the dead
Manipulating free will
Causing decay, blight
Poison
Delaying/impeding natural healing, causing deformities
Curses/hexes/evil eye
Unnatural application of natural law--a hand becomes a crab claw or something like that

That's what comes to mind for me. Their various permutations can cover a lot of different possibilities.

Thanks, I had thought of the first two, but the rest are a welcome addition I hadn't thopught about.

A couple of questions:

Delaying natural healing... What if allowing the healing is bad because it would mean you heal wrong or have to undergo a very dangerous procedure?

A hand becoming a Crab claw... What if they asked you to do it?

One more
Free will... What if they asked you to manipulate their free will to kick a habit? To quit smoking for example?

My idea of black magic here is corruption of natural order and corruption of man, something akin to man being made in the image of God and corrupting that is a bad thing.

Corrupting of natural healing would be interference with the natural order. What I had in mind was a curse to keep a wound perpetually festering, for example. If simply delaying healing so that it can heal from the inside out and avoid a cystic tumor or whatever, that's different, as you're helping along the natural process.

Corrupting the body into an unnatural shape, that would be a violation against the image the creator has for man.

And for the manipulation of free will, well, for someone to truly change they have to desire the change. Doing a men in black style mind wipe on an addiction would do the trick, but my reasoning here is that the means are more important than the end. My idea was to focus on things that are evil on a fundamental level, not on the basis of results. So that men in black mind wipe, that would veer into grey territory.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2021, 03:56:59 PM »
Raising the dead
Manipulating free will
Causing decay, blight
Poison
Delaying/impeding natural healing, causing deformities
Curses/hexes/evil eye
Unnatural application of natural law--a hand becomes a crab claw or something like that

That's what comes to mind for me. Their various permutations can cover a lot of different possibilities.

Thanks, I had thought of the first two, but the rest are a welcome addition I hadn't thopught about.

A couple of questions:

Delaying natural healing... What if allowing the healing is bad because it would mean you heal wrong or have to undergo a very dangerous procedure?

A hand becoming a Crab claw... What if they asked you to do it?

One more
Free will... What if they asked you to manipulate their free will to kick a habit? To quit smoking for example?

My idea of black magic here is corruption of natural order and corruption of man, something akin to man being made in the image of God and corrupting that is a bad thing.

Corrupting of natural healing would be interference with the natural order. What I had in mind was a curse to keep a wound perpetually festering, for example. If simply delaying healing so that it can heal from the inside out and avoid a cystic tumor or whatever, that's different, as you're helping along the natural process.

Corrupting the body into an unnatural shape, that would be a violation against the image the creator has for man.

And for the manipulation of free will, well, for someone to truly change they have to desire the change. Doing a men in black style mind wipe on an addiction would do the trick, but my reasoning here is that the means are more important than the end. My idea was to focus on things that are evil on a fundamental level, not on the basis of results. So that men in black mind wipe, that would veer into grey territory.

Thanks for claryfying your thoughts, I fully agree and further it ties perfectly into my setting.

As for the Resurrection thing, I think it would depend on who is being resurrected, why and by what means.

On the other hand making undead, living dead, etc is black period.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2021, 03:57:30 PM »
Raising the dead
Manipulating free will
Causing decay, blight
Poison
Delaying/impeding natural healing, causing deformities
Curses/hexes/evil eye
Unnatural application of natural law--a hand becomes a crab claw or something like that

That's what comes to mind for me. Their various permutations can cover a lot of different possibilities.
When you say "Raising the dead" are you talking about bringing the dead back to life (via resurrection, reincarnation, etc.) or about the creation of undead?

As for the Resurrection thing, I think it would depend on who is being resurrected, why and by what means.

On the other hand making undead, living dead, etc is black period.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

ScytheSong

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2021, 04:25:41 PM »
As a side note, the traditional Roman Inquisition definitions of "White" versus "Black" magic (Sorcery vs. Witchcraft in some sources) was whether you were using natural processes (White) or compelling/contracting with spirits (Black) to perform the effect. So, using astrological connections, synecdoche, herbalism, potions, or alchemical processes were all white, while casting a spell, a curse, or a hex by invoking either God, the saints, and angels, or nature spirits, or pagan deities, or demonic forces would all be considered black.

I don't know if this will help or muddy the waters further.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2021, 04:29:09 PM »
As a side note, the traditional Roman Inquisition definitions of "White" versus "Black" magic (Sorcery vs. Witchcraft in some sources) was whether you were using natural processes (White) or compelling/contracting with spirits (Black) to perform the effect. So, using astrological connections, synecdoche, herbalism, potions, or alchemical processes were all white, while casting a spell, a curse, or a hex by invoking either God, the saints, and angels, or nature spirits, or pagan deities, or demonic forces would all be considered black.

I don't know if this will help or muddy the waters further.

Thanks, it does both: It helps and also muddies the waters. But I think it does more of the first and much less of the latter so it balances to a win.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

FingerRod

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2021, 04:59:29 PM »
I recently started work on shaping magic for a future campaign and came up with six categories of magic that would be black, evil, etc.

Paralyze
Animate Dead
Speak with Dead
Curse
Life Transfer
Decay

Some of these do not fit classic tropes, which was okay by me. These are categories of spells, so you could have multiple types of spells fitting inside each grouping.

Super interested in where this conversation goes because I am still in the early stages and collecting ideas.

Pat

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2021, 05:00:58 PM »
What type of spells would you guys say ARE definetely Black magic regardless of the intent/means?
Charm, dominate, magic jar, anything related.

Pretty much anything else should be fine.

Mishihari

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2021, 05:28:01 PM »
With respect to the question about a healing spell that requires human sacrifice, I'd say that black trumps white.  If any effect of the spell is black or grey then the whole thing is.  Raise dead but gives someone a bloody nose?  Still black. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 05:41:45 PM by Mishihari »

GeekyBugle

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2021, 05:28:50 PM »
I recently started work on shaping magic for a future campaign and came up with six categories of magic that would be black, evil, etc.

Paralyze
Animate Dead
Speak with Dead
Curse
Life Transfer
Decay

Some of these do not fit classic tropes, which was okay by me. These are categories of spells, so you could have multiple types of spells fitting inside each grouping.

Super interested in where this conversation goes because I am still in the early stages and collecting ideas.

I agree with all but one, why paralyze?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Magic is but a tool... And yet... HELP! [No Politics please]
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2021, 05:30:33 PM »
With respect to the question about a healing spell that requires human sacrifice, I'd say that black trumps white.  If any effect of the spell is black or grey then the whole thing is.  Raise did but gives someone a bloody nose?  Still black.

Yeah intent and means do weight a lot. Means having the more weight IMHO in determining if it's black magic or not.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell