Mafia movies and TV shows are practically a guaranteed hit these days, yet, they don't seem to have the same popularity in RPGs.  Why do you think that is?

How do you translate being in (or against) the Mafia and doing Mafia things to gameplay? I think that may be the greatest hurdle.

(I'd probably start thinking from a hybrid of Ars Magica's troupe-based play to cover families, and CP2020 missions to cover hits, but that's just me.)

Structural changes for the idea/theme to function as a role playing game. RPGs aren't movies. If you start by translating the mafia thing as though your RPG was a movie emulator, you fail.

Great RPGs come with a structure of their own that facilitates play and helps bring the goods at the game table (i.e. fun). It's the dungeon and wilderness structure of Dungeons & Dragons, the investigation of Cthulhu (and the reason why Delta Green is hailed as a great success - because it doubles-down on the structure by providing a premise that makes sense of the game from the outset), the "by Night" of Vampire the Masquerade, despite its storytelling red herring.

You would have to build a structure that is specific to a mafia role playing game... actually, scratch that. Vampire the Masquerade is just that: the schematics of relationships within coteries, the coteries and clans structure within the city, who controls what in which part of town and how... fundamentally, if you take away the supernatural, that's what you're left with: a mafia role playing game.

Quote from: Melan;538058How do you translate being in (or against) the Mafia and doing Mafia things to gameplay? I think that may be the greatest hurdle.

(I'd probably start thinking from a hybrid of Ars Magica's troupe-based play to cover families, and CP2020 missions to cover hits, but that's just me.)

Heh. Cross-posted. Great minds and all.

Quote from: CRKrueger;538056Mafia movies and TV shows are practically a guaranteed hit these days, yet, they don't seem to have the same popularity in RPGs.  Why do you think that is?

I think it is a few things. First there hasn't really beem a big name mafia rpg put out by a major company like paizo or wotc (there have been mafia games released by good companies and i think paizo even released a fantasy setting mobster book at one point but not anything like WOTC making a game using the sopranos, goodfellas or godfather license).

Second it is modern, mundane and niche. Most modern rpgs that do well have supernatural elements. For the most part getting players excited about playing regular joes in an ordinary world can be a challenge.

Third, the mafia genre is low on gas right now. It feels like everything that can be said about the mafia has been (and the fact that it is less relevant today in real life)And so there just aren't as many good movies or tv shows coming out (HBO did take a stab at doing prohibition era which is interesting and in a way full circle)---i do think there is a lot that couldbe done with the genre but it feels like you say "mafia" and people roll their eyes a bit.

Fourth, it is evil and evil parties are always a hard sell. I see this a the selling point. The fun of being mobsters is the pvp and player versus the world aspect (the adventures almost write themselves). Hands down my best campaigns have been mafia based.

Quote from: Benoist;538059You would have to build a structure that is specific to a mafia role playing game... actually, scratch that. Vampire the Masquerade is just that: the schematics of relationships within coteries, the coteries and clans structure within the city, who controls what in which part of town and how... fundamentally, if you take away the supernatural, that's what you're left with: a mafia role playing game.

This, this, and this! Mafia is the ultimate sandbox. All the gm needs is the players (pcs and npcs), power groups (famililes, rival organizations, key institutions, etc), locations (who controls what areas and who controls what rackets), events (turf wars, power plays, crack downs etc) and the pcs efforts to rise through the ranks pretty much takes care of itself. You dont need to ape movies at all, but classic mafia movie moments will crop up naturally because of the self fueling nature of this structure.

*SIGH*

...as always...
the mafia (as are pirates, Indiana Jones, cops, soldiers etc. ad nauseam ) is already in any RPG universe it should conceivably be in... as well as in some that would not suffer for its absence.

sigh

asking for a specific mafia rpg is like asking for a car that drives only on route 66. You know, because route 66 is awesome! Why aren't there any route-specific cars? If I had one, I would totally drive along that route.

Quote from: Melan;538058How do you translate being in (or against) the Mafia and doing Mafia things to gameplay? I think that may be the greatest hurdle.

(I'd probably start thinking from a hybrid of Ars Magica's troupe-based play to cover families, and CP2020 missions to cover hits, but that's just me.)

One day i will post my mafia game notes here. Once you figure out the basics it is actually easier to run, imo, than a classic fantasy game.the hardest part is keeoing track of all the different characters because it tends to be heavy on that stuff. Also managing players rackets can be a challenge.

Settembrini: Okay, granted, thieves' guilds are already the Mafia. But there are still few people focused on running TG-centric games.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;538064One day i will post my mafia game notes here. Once you figure out the basics it is actually easier to run, imo, than a classic fantasy game.the hardest part is keeoing track of all the different characters because it tends to be heavy on that stuff. Also managing players rackets can be a challenge.

See that sounds exactly like Vampire. Also the "hunt" is kind of like the idea of the racket, or performing some task for the Prince of the city by night: you get out there. Once. Twice. After a while, it can feel very bland and boring, unless there are events that put these actions into a certain context with a meaning the PCs can grasp and interact with, and that the campaign's focus slowy evolves to take the larger picture into consideration.

Vampire would work admirably well for this.

Quote from: Settembrini;538063*SIGH*

...as always...
the mafia (as are pirates, Indiana Jones, cops, soldiers etc. ad nauseam ) is already in any RPG universe it should conceivably be in... as well as in some that would not suffer for its absence.

sigh

asking for a specific mafia rpg is like asking for a car that drives only on route 66. You know, because route 66 is awesome! Why aren't there any route-specific cars? If I had one, I would totally drive along that route.

The issue often boils down to having things in the game like mechanics for managing rackets, the right grouping of skills, and a sufficiently lethal combat system. It is also a matter of having information on stuff like mafia structure and guidelines for handling advancement. In short, you don't need a mafia specific game, but it sure helps to have all that in one book.

Quote from: Benoist;538069See that sounds exactly like Vampire. Also the "hunt" is kind of like the idea of the racket, or performing some task for the Prince of the city by night: you get out there. Once. Twice. After a while, it can feel very bland and boring, unless there are events that put these actions into a certain context with a meaning the PCs can grasp and interact with, and that the campaign's focus slowy evolves to take the larger picture into consideration.

Vampire would work admirably well for this.

Vampire would work well with some minor adjustments. In fact a lot of vampire campaigns i was in really amounted to this.

The sorts of things that you need to keep this from getting boring are stuff like having an evolving landscape (when power vacuums emerge organizations move into fill them), having challenges present (not just rival gangs but rivalry within the family---for example if a pc becomes capo, he may find himself coming into conflict with another capo in th same family or even an ambitious soldier).

Totally, yes.

I think because it is more of a sub-genre than a genre on its own; that is to say, it is easily encapsulated in any other genre.

Also, because there is a 99.5% chance that there will be character conflict as some people just aren't cut out for that sort of gaming.

Here is an old blog entry of mine on the subject from about a year ago: http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/characters-and-conflict-heart-of.html

it kind of gets into how I prep (I left out some of the more elaborate stuff like my organizational charts---which are modeled on those fbi mock ups of mafia hierarchies-----it was lot of fun to see the pcs make their way onto these).