Quote from: Omega;912362Which is why so many compare 5e to BX too as its got that same initial feel of an even start.

From playing a couple of campaigns of both, it extends into the higher levels as well. Again how this is achieved is very different. In OD&D, high level characters have one or two unique capabilities and the rest is handled on what the character acquired (knowledge, henchmens, items, etc) throughout the campaign. In 5e, the characters themselves are different as each class have significant customization options.

Quote from: Daztur;912197What I like is max HP at level one then roll ALL hit dice when you gain a level and take the new result if it's higher than the old one. Easier at first, more forgiving, more dice rolling and only baaaaaarely from HPs over the long haul.

Iirc this is the way it was done in 0D&D. Certainly this is how it was done in Empire of the Petal Throne which followed very shortly thereafter. All hit dice were rerolled at each level keeping the better total, starting at max hit points was a common house rule. My 0D&D books are in storage or I would look it up.

I have changed the unconcious at 0, dead at -10, bleeding at -1 per round on occasion to dead at negative CON. This does make Constitution a much more important stat for combat characters. A round of first aid and bandaging will stop the bleeding but not restore any hit points. Healing begins when bedrest begins.

Quote from: DavetheLost;912394Iirc this is the way it was done in 0D&D.

You don't remember correctly.  In original D&D, you rolled your hit dice at first level.  So you could wind up with a fighter with 1 hp and a magic-user with 6.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;912406You don't remember correctly.  In original D&D, you rolled your hit dice at first level.  So you could wind up with a fighter with 1 hp and a magic-user with 6.

How do you get a Magic User with six?  They use a d4 hit die!

Quote from: AaronBrown99;912407How do you get a Magic User with six?  They use a d4 hit die!

Not in the LBB's. Every weapon did 1d6 damage and everybody had d6 hit dice back then (though fighters got d6+1).

And apparently you re-rolled your hits each level? So your level 3 Fighting Man might have 18 hits (3d6) and then at level 4 have only 4 (4d6). Meanwhile the MU at same might have 2 (2d6) at level 3 and then 13 (2d6+1) at level 4.

Least the example in the book seemed to be saying that? Though could be it was just an example of the + and not meant to mean that you re-rolled every level.

The flat to-hit progression in D&D has always bugged the shit out of me. A fighter and a wizard armed with similar weapons and fighting moderately armored foes have very similar offensive firepower in melee combat. The fighter has better HP and access to better armor, so in the end you have to call him/her the more powerful melee character. But it just seems like poor, even weird, game design to given them similar abilities to dole out damage.

Quote from: Larsdangly;912430The flat to-hit progression in D&D has always bugged the shit out of me. A fighter and a wizard armed with similar weapons and fighting moderately armored foes have very similar offensive firepower in melee combat. The fighter has better HP and access to better armor, so in the end you have to call him/her the more powerful melee character. But it just seems like poor, even weird, game design to given them similar abilities to dole out damage.

Which D&D? For Basic, yeah, it was similar, but there were only 3 levels there, a huge bonus to armor class and superior weapons is about you can hope for in such a small range.

By AD&D, the fighters were going up 2 pips on the die every 2 levels (changed to 1 pip every 1 level in 3.0, an obvious improvement), putting them away ahead of wizards in to-hit in fairly short order.

Quote from: DavetheLost;912394Iirc this is the way it was done in 0D&D. Certainly this is how it was done in Empire of the Petal Throne which followed very shortly thereafter. All hit dice were rerolled at each level keeping the better total, starting at max hit points was a common house rule. My 0D&D books are in storage or I would look it up.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;912406You don't remember correctly.  In original D&D, you rolled your hit dice at first level.  So you could wind up with a fighter with 1 hp and a magic-user with 6.

Quote from: Omega;912414And apparently you re-rolled your hits each level? So your level 3 Fighting Man might have 18 hits (3d6) and then at level 4 have only 4 (4d6). Meanwhile the MU at same might have 2 (2d6) at level 3 and then 13 (2d6+1) at level 4.

Least the example in the book seemed to be saying that? Though could be it was just an example of the + and not meant to mean that you re-rolled every level.

Not sure if Dave is saying that OD&D had both max hit points at 1st level and a reroll all hit dice at every level rule, or just the second one.

The first is definitely wrong. The second is open to interpretation. Men & Magic does not say when or how hit dice are rolled. It just gives an example of how the dice + adds for a superhero work.

There is an implication, though, that they are rerolled every time the character levels up. For example, a 9th level Lord is 9+3 hit dice, with 12 hit points as the lowest possible result. A 10th level Lord is 10 +1 hit dice, with a lowest result of 11 hit points. If you were only rolling one extra die each time you leveled up and adding the result to your current total, this would not make sense. Do you subtract two from the die when you roll? Do your hit points go down if you roll badly?

On the other hand, if you read it as "reroll all hit dice every level", there is nothing in the rules to even suggest that you keep the highest result. I actually used that rule at my table. I gave players the option to reroll all hit dice when back at home base and erasing all damage immediately, but they had to keep the new result until the next time they level up or return to heal damage. First player who took that option rolled a 1. He went with it, though, and in a way, the rule helped. It made him extra cautious on the next expedition.

Quote from: CRKrueger;912248True, going from 50 to 5 hit points, even without any penalties applied still means you are dramatically reduced in effectiveness, you're basically unable to dodge or shrug off any blows, the next attack might kill you.  It's just the way HP work - with a low AC, you could cleave through 40 orcs without any reduction in offensive capability and as long as they didn't land that one hit, you're basically fine.

I think I misunderstood your original point; you were talking about having a larger span of time between being taken out of the fight and being dead beyond any help at all? Certainly that should sometimes be very short (Godzilla stepped on you when you were completely healthy, or a critical hit, but those can correspond to high damage in the game) but if you're slowly being whittled down by the same attacks over a long span, then it is sort of weird if there's no in between state, and 0HP alone, say, is a rather narrow range for unconscious. I'm not sure if the width of that range should scale with level, though.

But if you count HP left into effectiveness then it's pretty unusual in an RPG to go from 100% effective to dead just like that. OK, the character with one HP who is very hard to hit, but that's not a common thing even for NPCs.

Quote from: Doom;912253Agreed, as soon as they run out of cantrips, they're screwed.

I was responding to the claim that using mage armor and shield made them great at defense. With only cantrips remaining, they stop being great, surprisingly or otherwise, at defense, which becomes terrible, and are not that special at offense and utility.

Eight hours after the spell slots run out, the level 9 wizard you describe has AC12. That's really squishy. Damage cantrips scale with level and offer two dice with no bonus, where combat classes at that level typically have two attacks, so two dice damage with their best ability added twice, and the same chance to hit for both. Magical weapons with a bonus to hit and damage can be found but I have yet to see one for damage cantrips¹. If cantrips make a character with no armor so awesome, then we'd expect more characters to take a feat or a multiclassed level to get access to some of those all-powerful cantrips.

In OD&D, the ratio of average HP for a level 9 fighter versus level 9 magic-user is pretty similar to the ratio in 5e (whether with high CON versus 14 CON, or average CON versus average CON). The fighter would hit slightly more often (3rd column of the combat chart versus 2nd, so +3) but their weapon damage was the same (dagger did the same d6 as anything else).

¹ Cantrips do have problems in 5e; a few characters can add ability score to their damage, they keep adding dice, there's no ammunition supply like an archer would have to manage, some call for a saving throw instead of an attack roll, and a few do better than d8's of damage. And there are some non damage cantrips that have a lot of potential for abuse, like Guidance [which is not a wizard cantrip]. Even so, my experience is that they don't dominate the game in actual play.

At a guess this was why BX and AD&D clarify or changed it so that that you roll an extra die and add to your previous HP each level.

Agreed, under the assumption they don't have any spells, Wizards are pretty bad.

Realistically, of course, this doesn't happen. The simple fact that Shield is only used when needed, means the wizard could easily be in half a dozen rounds of melee combat before running out of first level spell slots....and then he can just use higher level spell slots.

And, of course, combats don't usually last that long. And, of course, wizards don't usually put themselves into melee for that many rounds. And, of course, the wizard will usually use his spells to help himself in combat. And, of course, the rest of the party will usually help out even such an incompetent wizard. And, of course, "after 8 hours he's squishy" is misleading, since a single short rest is usually enough for a wizard to get some spell slots back. And, of course, there are few scenarios where the adventurers have more than 8 consecutive hours of combat.

But without all these common scenarios, in a white room, under the assumption of the wizard having no spells and especially if he can't move in addition, then, yeah, I agree...he's pretty sucky on defense.

Wizards really suck at defense if they have no arms, legs, or head.

Quote from: Doom;912458Agreed, under the assumption they don't have any spells, Wizards are pretty bad.

Realistically, of course, this doesn't happen. The simple fact that Shield is only used when needed, means the wizard could easily be in half a dozen rounds of melee combat before running out of first level spell slots....and then he can just use higher level spell slots.

You just like having people curb stomp you with facts dont you?

Here we go again.

Lets see. Level 9  Wizard has 14 spells, (not counting cantrips.) That is. After 14 rounds the Wizard is down to just cantrips and guess what. Those work pretty much like a fighters sword.

Shield only lasts one round. Useful if you are being ganged up on. But can end up wasted if no one attacks you the round duration its up. And you cant blow higher slots to cast it so you only get... drumroll please... Yep... 4 of those oh so super powerful Shield. uh-huh. Yeah man Im invincible!
So once you've used all those up. What next? Cloud of daggers can make for a pretty mean barrier between you and someone wanting to hack you into wizard gibs. Lasts up to 10 rounds so good for a whole battle. Only get 3 though. Next up. Lets see. Stinking Cloud makes for a great offensive barrier still. Drop that in front of the party and its bound to fuck up a monster sooner or later and thats a lost action if it does. 3 of those as well. Next up, Stoneskin is a possible option here. Lasts up to an hour and halves most melee damage. Only get three, but pretty good coverage. And lastly theres the 5th level spell. Just one. Sorry. Cloudkill I favoured as its got a long duration.

Why use spells like that? Because we learned the hard way that tactics count. A spell cast poorly is just about useless. find some place to bottleneck or at least restrict movement and all those cloud spells become more effective than a fireball. The main trick though is that you need friends to back you up and cover those areas the spells cant.

Teamwork. Something apparently thrown under the wheels of "modern" players egos.