FATAL is not just rejected because of sexual content, but because of terrible, utterly bizarre and byzantine rules it presented. I'll actually Song of Ice and Fire and the only book of Gor I bothered to try out, Assassin of Gor.

SoIaF, besides it's terribly written sex scenes and occasional forced sex with underage (like, you know, Daenerys in first book), is still a well - written interesting piece of fiction. And you can argue that the sex scenes are needed there for the feel of it's GRIMDARK world.

Gor series, on the other hand, if you take away all the innuendo and fetishism, is...a mediocre story at best.

I'd use actual 120 Days of Sodom by good ole de Sade as a point of reference here, but I have not read it, therefore I'd rather not comment on it, though I had heard from people whose taste I value that it is not worth my time.

It all boils down to how those transgressive (forgive me, new word, gotta use it as much as I can) are used. That is why I do not exactly fly my banners for Carcosa, because in my opinion, the shopping lists actually are boring no matter if there's child blood on them, or not. Bear in mind though that I am ye olde classical degenerated nihilist .

Quote from: Benoist;499092I don't think I do, really. It's all in the purpose and presentation of such material, whether it has a point in the greater picture of the product beyond just reveling in this or that outrage for the sake of it. I see a purpose in the depiction of rituals in Carcosa that serves its overall dark, amoral fantasy in an outlandish world concept fairly well, whereas rolling for your anal circumference is FATAL just leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.

Now mate, you are totally entitled to say "hm nope, not for me really, I'd cringe throughout a game of Carcosa". I'm totally cool with that. It's totally understandable.

That's fair enough.  I don't want to seem to be harping on this point or singling you out for criticism.  I get where you are coming from and appreciate your civility.


-TGA

Quote from: Rincewind1;499094FATAL is not just rejected because of sexual content, but because of terrible, utterly bizarre and byzantine rules it presented.

Yes, and many, many equally bad and obscure games are out there.  Why is FATAL not as obscure as them?  The only reason we talk about it is the sexual transgressions it implies.  Sexual transgressions that we have as a community almost universally rejected.  

The shitty overcomplicated FATAL system isn't the reason for its public status as "The Worst RPG Ever".  The deviant sexual nature of its content is.  And yet other games seem to get a bit of a pass on this score.

I just find it interesting.


-TGA

Would you mind starting a new thread, perhaps then? I actually find  the topic interesting, but I thing we've moved past Carcosa at this point, not to mention the poor and forgotten Isle of the Unknown*, and I'd actually more then love to discuss this, even if I think I already did.


*Which only sort of proves the point that the naughty bits in Carcosa are there at least partially because of additional publicity controversy raises.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;499095That's fair enough.  I don't want to seem to be harping on this point or singling you out for criticism.  I get where you are coming from and appreciate your civility.


-TGA

Likewise, mate. Not a problem at all.

Quote from: Rincewind1;499094SoIaF, besides it's terribly written sex scenes and occasional forced sex with underage (like, you know, Daenerys in first book), is still a well - written interesting piece of fiction. And you can argue that the sex scenes are needed there for the feel of it's GRIMDARK world.

As I mentioned upthread, I think that there is a difference in presenting these things in fiction vs in RPG play.  I am not a member of the censor books that make me feel uncomfortable brigade.  I understand and appreciate that the depiction of unpleasant and terrible things is sometimes artistically justified.

I just think that the line between justified and "fuck you" is much, much easier to cross in RPGs because of player identification and direct agency.


-TGA

Quote from: Rincewind1;499099Would you mind starting a new thread, perhaps then? I actually find  the topic interesting, but I thing we've moved past Carcosa at this point, not to mention the poor and forgotten Isle of the Unknown*, and I'd actually more then love to discuss this, even if I think I already did.

The embers seem to be dying on this one in any case.  The only thing missing is the author or new publisher jumping in the fray.

Quote from: Rincewind1;499099*Which only sort of proves the point that the naughty bits in Carcosa are there at least partially because of additional publicity controversy raises.

Yes, indeed.


-TGA

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;499103As I mentioned upthread, I think that there is a difference in presenting these things in fiction vs in RPG play.  I am not a member of the censor books that make me feel uncomfortable brigade.  I understand and appreciate that the depiction of unpleasant and terrible things is sometimes artistically justified.

I just think that the line between justified and "fuck you" is much, much easier to cross in RPGs because of player identification and direct agency.


-TGA

Then again, even a finest role - player, the one who immerses him/her self completely, can disjunct from his role afterwards. Otherwise, all that Christian bollocks of the 80s would be a bit right.

I both agree and disagree with you here. RPGs certainly make entering such a mindset easier by their very definition - and such an experiment is creepy indeed. But then again - most books would actually want you to feel so immersed in the story and the writing, that you'd feel that you were there.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;499103I just think that the line between justified and "fuck you" is much, much easier to cross in RPGs because of player identification and direct agency.

-TGA

That's a very good point, though I wouldn't put it exactly in those terms. I think that exactly where the line is will greatly vary from individual to individual playing an RPG as opposed to watching a movie or reading a novel. For some people, the line will be much tighter/closer because of the first person visceral experience, while for others the line will get even looser because of the privacy of the game or the fact you're playing with friends and so on. And that's just one dimension I just mentioned here: that's not to mentioning the points we've been discussing about the purpose of ultraviolence and amoral elements in a greater picture, which will be reacted to in completely different ways by different people, depending on backgrounds, situations, what kind of stimuli they are picking on rather than others, and so on, which each play a part in where exactly the line is drawn in the end.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;499104The embers seem to be dying on this one in any case.  The only thing missing is the author or new publisher jumping in the fray.



Yes, indeed.


-TGA

Fair enough. To the inquiry about FATAL then.

If you want my shortest answer here - it's because it is also a thousand pages of absurdity upon absurdity.

I'm going to link to RPG.Net's wiki here, because I think it'd make discussion easier, at least this time.

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Worst_RPGs_ever

See, just after FATAL and Ye Olde Racist RPG, the third one is HYBRID. Before FATAL, Hybrid was reviled as the worst RPG - and notice there's practically no controversial content there. It's just the worst kind of bizarre rules upon layers of absurd rules supported by mathematics that'd make designer of R'lyeh spin confused.

And FATAL added to that a new layer of controversial claims, sexist rules, and merry kingdom of rape and rules how to design stretchiness of your asshole.

So I am going to defend Poison'd, if only because it's a disgust served in only 30 pages(28 precisely in PDF format), instead of a 1000+. And that's if we completely reject mechanics of Poison'd as also pure gibberish.

Quote from: Benoist;499106That's a very good point, though I wouldn't put it exactly in those terms. I think that exactly where the line is will greatly vary from individual to individual playing an RPG as opposed to watching a movie or reading a novel. For some people, the line will be much tighter/closer because of the first person visceral experience, while for others the line will get even looser because of the privacy of the game or the fact you're playing with friends and so on. And that's just one dimension I just mentioned here: that's not to mentioning the points we've been discussing about the purpose of ultraviolence and amoral elements in a greater picture, which will be reacted to in completely different ways by different people, depending on backgrounds, situations, what kind of stimuli they are picking on rather than others, and so on, which each play a part in where exactly the line is drawn in the end.

Ultraviolence is actually a very good example, I can't believe I forgot about it (also a valid point in the post). Take Clockwork Orange, the work that coined that term - both film and book depict rape and brutality, and in fact - they are both shown from the perspective of the antihero, if not villain of the film/book, Alex. But it is well and interestingly written, and also serves to prove some point - warns us of what may happen in a society desensitized to brutality, and of the endless circle of youth delinquency.

Quote from: Rincewind1;499110rules how to design stretchiness of your asshole.

Admit it, you rolled just once.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;499113Admit it, you rolled just once.  

Ssssh, don't tell . I didn't get that far before I wanted to take a shower when I was reading FATAL.

And yes - even for a degenerate like me, after reading just 60 pages of FATAL and it's famed review, I actually felt dirty. De Sade at least had balls to applaud to what he had written.

Quote from: Rincewind1;499110rules how to design stretchiness of your asshole.

This is one area where I'm sure we'd all agree that GM fiat is most unwelcome

Quote from: soviet;499127This is one area where I'm sure we'd all agree that GM fiat is most unwelcome

Dude, trust me, you don't want the GM to go there.

Quote from: Benoist;499130Dude, trust me, you don't want the GM to go there.

What, don't you trust your GM or something?