Quote from: Willie the Duck;958608For all the talk we usually put down here about how politically partisan a certain other site is, this is beginning to feel like the exact same thing, except mirror imaged enantiomers on the other side of the political spectrum (obviously there isn't mod-enforced toeing of the line, so it's not exactly the same).

True, though I still find the number of "I don't care about this, and you shouldn't either because it's a fucking stupid thing to care about" type posts reassuring, considering that a) it is explicitly against the rules of That Other Site to say that there, and b) it is nonetheless what I consider to be the correct response to a lot of things that crop up online.

... though I suddenly wonder if we will live to see a time when the Zeitgeist has changed sufficiently that rushing in to declare your high-minded apathy has become the new form of virtue signalling, and I will find myself getting passionate about anything and everything just to be contrary? Probably. But I think we're a long way away from that right now.

I can't help but find it sort of funny that #Posthuman is so concerned about gender for a setting where gender is nothing but a fashion accessory. Hopefully the system redesign will also be more female friendly.

Quote from: sureshot;958573Companies are essentially saying that unless women get hired on purpose that they can't get by on their own. How does that help the cause of women in general.

It doesn't, and companies are basically using this 'oppression' as a marketing tool. Because if they wanted to hire more women, they could just hire more women. It's surprisingly not that difficult.

Which reminds me, why aren't any of these companies bragging about hiring more PoC?

Quote from: Xuc xac;958631I personally like to know that a product has more than one gender or ethnic background involved in it.

Yeah, because productions by committee are always so much better.

Quote from: Xuc xac;958631I don't like Harry Potter, but it's a good example of what I mean. If J.K. Rowling had been a man, Harry Potter might still have been the same wildly successful pile of crap,

You mean the kind of crap which led to this:

   "My first trip to Wizarding World Orlando, I walk behind the 3 Broomsticks restaurant and I see a table full of kids in school robes with their heads in books. Who reads books at a theme park? I walked up and asked what they were reading. They were doing their homework. Wait what? They explained they went to the junior high right behind the park and have season passes. Their parents let them come to the park and do their homework. They're doing their real homework in a fake school in cosplay. Universal didn't design that into the park but it's happening."

Quote from: Xuc xac;958631The Incredible Hulk is pretty powerful and a valuable member of the Avengers team, but they would be a lot less effective if they were just 7 or 8 Hulks.

He's also a #BrokenStair who could instantly ruin any progress The Avengers make in an instant. One should question whether he's worth having on any team.

My point is that diversity is not a virtue in itself, and does not automatically lead to better products. In fact, without a central authority or shared culture throwing a bunch of different people into a group is far more likely to cause conflict than cooperation. It's that myth I have a problem with, not the hiring of more women.

Quote from: The ForumNon-English characters are not accepted

Oh the fucking irony.

It always seemed to me there were a lot more women artists in RPGs than writers. Still not a lot, but any random book you'd pick would probably have some in it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;958642Ding! Winner.

Nah, because if you're too ignorant to understand the real definition is "marketing to a demographic while pretending that your action is curing a social ill and taking credit for it", then you're just a loser.

BTW, no one did in the other thread, what a fucking shock, but maybe in this one someone will make an idiot out of themselves trying to answer the question as to which RPG company is not hiring women.

You know RPG designers aren't High Steel construction workers, or wall street alpha-schmucks, or silicon valley techbros, or like any other kind of industry that has REAL barriers to women.

It's one thing to look at representation and say "women aren't 52% of everything in the tabletop industry, so it must be sexism and misogyny" using as evidence sci-fi authors from 40 years ago, or women in the military, or because Hillary lost or any other bullshit reason that doesn't mean anything.

Once it was cool to watch the sun and start coming up with shit about a sky chariot, but once we invented science, you kind of have to put up a single shred of proof.  If anything, RPG game companies are overcompensating, as if the RPG industry is Goldman-Sachs circa 1950.  We're filling the other thread with designers, writers, artists, managers, editors, owners, executives who have been in the industry from the very beginning.  Where was the marketing blurb by TSR for having a woman do the Greyhawk map, probably the single most recognizable D&D map ever?  But back then, they just hired women, instead of advertising they are hiring women and talking about it more than they're hiring.  

Either it's cynical marketing, which they don't believe, which just makes them assholes, or they actually believe in the shit they're peddling, which makes them actually doing harm.

I really like the Eclipse Phase setting, but I just found the whole "Judaism and Christianity couldn't survive the apocalypse but Islam did because it's more enlightened" shtick both insulting and hilarious.

Quote from: Krimson;958636"Virtue Signalling" in RPGs seems to be a fancy buzz phrase for "Marketing to a demographic that I don't like."

It also doubles for "Marketing to a demographic that was never at risk of actually effecting your bottom line".

This whole thing is rather pointless, both the action and reaction. But I say this as someone who can only really recognize the work of two artists. Melissa Uran and the guy that does the Pathfinder art.

I would much prefer this thread be damned to Pungency.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;958591If I were running a game company I'd hire entirely radical feminisits and put "NOW WITH EXTRA SOCIAL JUSTICE" and "DESIGNED ENTIRELY BY WOMEN" on every product just to piss off some of the posters around here.

I'd have more respect for that. It would be more honest and probably far more interesting.

Why? It would not be another a generic RPG, but now with 10% More Girl Genitals! Instead, a radical feminist RPG would have a perspective. message and vitality - so even if it wasn't a project for me, it would something unique created with energy, instead of a cheap politicized throwaway.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;958608That's what this is, internet offense. But of course it's the other side that is the outrage brigade.

Ah yes, the Outraged Anti-Outrage Brigade Brigade.

Quote from: CRKrueger;958611I guess that makes you "internet offended" by other people becoming "internet offended"?  

When other people post they are "internet offended" and when you post you're just expressing your opinion about the topic I suppose?

I'm trying to find something about this post to be offended and outraged about, but I kind of got lost...

Quote from: sureshot;958615I do still plan to get the updated edition of Eclipse Phase. I just think it's unnecessary to have to point out that their hiring more of any gender. I happen to believe people should be judged by their behavior and quality of their work. Not their gender.  As long as the final product is top notch who cares who works on it.

You might be right about that, but I don't fault them for using language which markets to a demographic that they feel is large enough that it could have an economic impact. This is a game with a strong element of transhumanism which may have an appeal to those who eschew traditional gender roles. I can think of several non RPG playing friends I could probably get into the hobby just from that selling point alone. Personally I wouldn't go that route, even out of spite, but that's more because I don't like to volunteer information including my motives for commissions. Fun fact, the avatar picture I am using is my own character from a Post-Cyberpunk Urban Fantasy setting and she is quite transhuman. The artist who did the commission for me is a fairly famous Youtube musician who may very well be nonbinary, and who also remixed one of my own songs which has over 100k views (that's just me bragging). But I certainly didn't hire him because of his gender. Sure, I may be sympathetic to him but the real reason is that there was a time when he had a lot of talent and I had a lot of overtime, so I helped finance his first CD and got him to do a few commissions for me because I wanted to see him succeed. One of his songs uses a synthetic voicebank that was voiced by a Japane Voice Artist (Yuu Asakawa). He has never met her, but I have and I got her to sign his CD so I could taunt him with it on Youtube. Even more amusing, this was after she had performed his song live, but they still never met in person. Internet friendships can be fun. Sorry for the tangent.

Back to gaming. yes I personally would not hire someone based on their gender. By the same token, I would not dismiss someone because of their gender either. As someone who has been a Shop Steward at various times, and Management at various time, I have seen the latter more often than the former, though not in the game industry which is not my field. That said, if someone wants to make a statement, I feel that is their business. It is quite possible that gender equality in gaming is a by-product of gender inequality in other fields and the desire to represent. I have no issue with that.

Conversely, there are people whose politics that I disagree with. Such as Pundit. Truth be told, I don't disagree with him on all things. But those times when he goes Full Pundit can be a little trying. Despite that, he has a genuine love of D&D and the OSR, and he puts care and dedication into his games. I happen to like D&D and the OSR so if he puts out a product that is made with care and dedication, I give him money for it. Mind you, I saw a lot of people slag him when 5e came out and I knew him from arguing with him during the Cubicle 7 Doctor Who Adventures in Time and Space playtest. Being a bit internet savvy, I did some research on him and found that a lot of the accusations were bogus. In fact I have told other people who lean left that I have not seen anything to indicate that he is a bad person. So basically, I dislike his politics but I like his game stuff. I ended up finding him on Google Plus (been around since beta) which led me here.

Sorry for the length of reply. I will certainly look into the new edition of Eclipse Phase. If it gets a print copy, I may be more inclined to wait until it hits Sentry Box, because if I see it sitting on a shelf there is no way I am leaving without it.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;958622My my Voros is right, there certainly are quite a few overly sensitive internet tough guys on this site, and their avatars all too often make it all too easy to see what's happening.

Now now, let's not pick on people's avatars, I say with no sense of irony at all.

Quote from: CRKrueger;958624BTW, the avatar was based on an old discussion on Marvel Heroic Roleplaying.

A very excellent and neglected system which I had some good times with, including a game I ran for over a year that had my avatar as an NPC. I think the most enjoyable Hulk I have read was Planet Hulk and World War Hulk where for a good amount of time they actually let him be a being with thoughts and a mind. If I were to run MHR and someone wanted to play that kind of Hulk I would have no problem with that. Even the traditional Banner/Hulk storyline is interesting, playing on the Jekyll/Hyde trope but going beyond that. Hulk has always been an interesting character. I don't care for the Ultimate version much though.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;958660He's also a #BrokenStair who could instantly ruin any progress The Avengers make in an instant.

That's part of his charm. Plus, there is not one single Avenger who doesn't know that Hulk is a lose cannon who can ruin any progress they make in an instant, but they decide to bring him along anyway. So self inflicted wounds and all...

Quote from: CRKrueger;958673Nah, because if you're too ignorant to understand the real definition is "marketing to a demographic while pretending that your action is curing a social ill and taking credit for it", then you're just a loser.

Maybe that's their motivation, maybe it's not. The fact that is a game where transhumanism is a major concept may certainly be appealing to potential players who may not be attracted to more conventional RPGs. Money talks, and if you are a capitalist you are going to craft your language to the demographic that you think is going to bring in the highest cash flow. To do otherwise is foolish.

Posthuman Studios?!!!! NOOOOO!!! Say it ain't so! They... they always seemed so... so... regressive!

Meh.

Yawn.

Also: Shit posters with no posts mocking the forum regulars are always a hoot.  Bonus points for namedropping the one what brung ya! What? Is Voros feeling the heat of being a shitty debater arguing a terrible position that he felt the need to call reinforcements in?   Bring it on, yo.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;958591If I were running a game company I'd hire entirely radical feminisits and put "NOW WITH EXTRA SOCIAL JUSTICE" and "DESIGNED ENTIRELY BY WOMEN" on every product just to piss off some of the posters around here.

That's what Marvel's comic division has done, and look how well that turned out. (Hint:  Badly, as in sinking even faster than before into irrelevancy.)

Quote from: Krimson;958594I'm kind of wondering why MRAs aren't forming their own companies, and making game products for their own kind. By their logic, the mass boycotts of *snicker* dying companies like GR should return the hobby to it's proper ownership, as they make it sounds like there are so many like minded folks out there that their own product line would result in immediate financial success and market share.

First off, who says they aren't?  Secondly, in the U.S. it's illegal to actually exclude people for race/gender/creed from hiring practices:

Quote from: From the interwebsTitle VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a federal law that prohibits employers from discriminating against employees on the basis of sex, race, color, national origin, and religion. It generally applies to employers with 15 or more employees, including federal, state, and local governments.

You know, I get the impression that you think that the MRM hates women.  Which is ironic, given that some of the loudest voices are other women.  Thing is, it doesn't.  It can't because it realizes that women are human too.  Which means flawed.

And for some reason, why has it become some sort of 'Oppression Olympics'?  Just because one group has it bad, supposedly, the other is all roses and peaches?  Tell that to all the divorced fathers who no longer get child visitation, not because they're bad fathers, but because the law favours mothers.

Yeah, we all have problems, so maybe all should get equal treatment, you know?  Instead we get one side trying to dominate by slandering and lying about the other.

Quote from: Krimson;958594I'll keep an eye on this since I like games that deal with transhumanism, which I imagine is another trigger considering you can transcend wetware let alone gender.

You'd be wrong.  But hey, if that's what let's you sleep at night...

Quote from: Krimson;958636"Virtue Signalling" in RPGs seems to be a fancy buzz phrase for "Marketing to a demographic that I don't like."

Actually, it's not RPGs, it's in comic books (Hello, Marvel), movies (Ghostbusters 2016), and TV shows (Anything done by Joss Whedon.)  Virtue Signaling is when a company or person states their personal situation as if it somehow validates their anecdote into fact or is somehow progressive.  Which frankly, it's not,  It makes you look like a poser "Look at me I'm SPESHUL!" when in reality you're pretty much like the rest of us mouth breathers.

It also detracts from actual achievements.  Like, is the game good?  Is it?  I don't care if you hire platypus (which apparently is the plural of platypus) to write for you (Other than I can't read their writings) as long as it's a good game.

And that's all Virtue Signaling does, distract you, the buyer, from finding out the most important thing in an RPG, is it good enough to put money down on it?

Who gives a shit, as long as the art is good and the system does get streamlined into something more functional with less bookkeeping as promised.

Quote from: Spinachcat;958685I would much prefer this thread be damned to Pungency.



I'd have more respect for that. It would be more honest and probably far more interesting.

And take it to Pungency shall be their rallying cry!

Its funny how "Take it to Tangency" started off as a gag on TBP... then that subforum basically consumed the site. But yeah, this thread seems to be moving in that direction. Aren't people supposed to PM a Mod or Rpgpundit himself about doing this?

Quote from: The Butcher;958696Who gives a shit, as long as the art is good and the system does get streamlined into something more functional with less bookkeeping as promised.

Whoever buys the game or backs the Kickstarter.

Marvel lost much of my respect with their constantly changing sides on the diversity. First diversity hurt sales then it's not diversity it's fans who hate change. They don't even have the stones to stick by what they say.

Quote from: Celestial;958680I really like the Eclipse Phase setting, but I just found the whole "Judaism and Christianity couldn't survive the apocalypse but Islam did because it's more enlightened" shtick both insulting and hilarious.

Not too much a fan of that aspect of the rpg myself. I can see why belief in religion would be less and that it might disappear. Given the end of the world and that one does not die just re-sleeve into another morph. Kind of makes one wonder if their really is a heaven or hell. Somehow Islam survives for being more "enlightened". Chances are in such a universe most people imo would give up on religion. For the record I am not against Islam I just disliked some aspects of the rpg.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;958580...the cucks...

:rolleyes: