Quote from: Ratman_tf;959473So what do you think is the problem?

I think we should follow that with: How do we solve said problem?

Considering that the very first D&D came out in 1974. I doubt their was the same number of female writers/artist now in 1974. I don't have figures it's just that D&D for better or worse player base was male for many years. The rpg for the longest time was a game only "losers and nerds" played. I still remember playing at my old high school where a three of the more socially popular girls walked into one of our D&D session. They were held after school and that day we were a little loud that day. Two of them walked out with utter looks of disgust on their face. One made a excuse she had to ask the teacher a question. Our sessions their was always a teacher who would supervise to make sure everything was safe and to keep a eye on us. She began talking about D&D to our complete and utter surprise. We ended up talking to her for at least a hour or two. Long story short a fan of D&D but no way was she going to play it because it would have ostracized her from the cool kids at school.  I'm sure because of that some women and men who wanted to possible right for D&D choose not to at the time. Probably because of the reputation of the rpg as not being something that the cool kids played. I first saw more female playesr of D&D when I went to college. Before then D&D or other rpgs at least in my neck of the woods the group demographic was male. And no it's not because we wanted no female members. It just seemed in my area women did not play rpgs.

Now of course Geek is cool but it's only within the last 5-10 years that it did become cool. Personally I'm certain the hobby reputation as being uncool hurt the recruitment of female writers/artists. It's not the only factor of course I'm sure if did not help matters.

Quote from: sureshot;959488Now of course Geek is cool but it's only within the last 5-10 years that it did become cool. Personally I'm certain the hobby reputation as being uncool hurt the recruitment of female writers/artists. It's not the only factor of course I'm sure if did not help matters.

I've noticed similar trends over the years. As teens, most girls often weren't interested in playing due to the social stigma. Later in High school and college as that stigma faded, there was less hesitation. I have to admit that White Wolf's game appeared to do a great deal for that locally but dawning "geek chic" has brought in allot of gamers from unexpect demographics, at least to give it a shot.

Quote from: Nexus;959490I've noticed similar trends over the years. As teens, most girls often weren't interested in playing due to the social stigma. Later in High school and college as that stigma faded, there was less hesitation. I have to admit that White Wolf's game appeared to do a great deal for that locally but dawning "geek chic" has brought in allot of gamers from unexpect demographics, at least to give it a shot.

It was the same thing with comic books, video games, sci-fi and fantasy novels. Most women when I was younger would not be caught dead playing video games or reading any of the three. It was not the type of thing the cool people did. It was the less cool who people who did it. I have to second that WW did help the situation.

Quote from: sureshot;959494It was the same thing with comic books, video games, sci-fi and fantasy novels.

I've experienced about the same thing. There were more women reading sci-fi, fantasy and similar genres though more quietly, IME, Ny mother was a ardent sci fi/horror and got me started. But it does seem like they're more "out of the closet" recently and openly "geeky" about their fandom

Quote from: Black Vulmea;959465She's published several very well-received roleplaying games for Modiphius, and if I had to guess, I'd say she got that opportunity because she's an excellent writer who works on schedule.

Why aren't there ten or twenty or forty Sarah Evans out there publishing games? Why is she the one example you point to?

Because she's hot right now and kind of came out of nowhere with a string of award-winning hits.  To be fair though, she lives in France and works for a British company so maybe doesn't even belong in this discussion if we're talking about USA.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;959465First, you're talking about writers and gaming companies that sell orders of magnitude games fewer than Paizo or Whizbros, so it's a pretty fucking patronizing metric.

Some of those women are going through postgraduate studies or working a full-time job and doing it as a hobby making micro-niche games they like.  I think it's patronizing to assume that's all they can get.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;959465Second, do you honestly think a woman wouldn't jump at the chance to design the The World's Most Popular?

Probably, depends on the money maybe.  Do you honestly know any? Felicia Day is one of the biggest women in gaming, where is her game?  She likes playing them, not designing them, or is it just not worth it? I don't know.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;959465I don't have an answer, but I have a much clearer idea of the problem that the knuckle-draggers do.

I don't know either, but I have the sense that you think there is a large untapped market of women RPG designers who either 1.) Are trying to get into the biz, but are hitting a wall of discrimination, or 2.) Have written it off as a possibility not because the culture is so bad.

I don't know man, tabletop RPGs are supposedly up big this year in sales. 5e's success, multi-million dollar kickstarters, Critical Role, Twitch, etc.  Maybe there are female designers who can't get in, maybe the companies are waiting for female designers who don't want to get in, maybe it's both and other things besides.  But it certainly isn't one thing, and with the current gaming, social, media and cultural climate, I doubt sexism is the prime factor.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;959482I think we should follow that with: How do we solve said problem?

Let's cross that bridge when we get there. I may or may not agree with his reponse.

Quote from: CRKrueger;959498or 2.) Have written it off as a possibility not because the culture is so bad.

If so, in their defense, the progressives in the hobby are pretty creepy.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;959500If so, in their defense, the progressives in the hobby are pretty creepy.

The women I personally know that felt put off by gamer culture were given that feeling on rpg.net and subsequently left the site.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;959499Let's cross that bridge when we get there. I may or may not agree with his reponse.

Whether or not you agree with the response of the first question doesn't really matter, if there is a problem that only he sees then he should have a solution for it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;959472BV I wasn't making that observation to weigh in on the debate, just to correct the idea that there were not women designers during the 2E period. It wasn't just the modules. The Realm of Terror Box Set was written by Bruce Nesmith and Andria Heyday.

Lisa Smedman also wrote the excellent Castle Forlorn boxset for Ravenloft in addition to a whackload of modules for the setting. She ended up heading to the greener pastures of sf/fantasy novels though. It is very hard to make a living as an rpg designer.

Lee Gold started the A&E zine in 75' and must have been among the first female RPG designers.

Jean Wells worked pretty early at TSR although her first module seems to have been unfairly taken away and re-edited (I think her original is stronger than the edited version), ironically due to 'inappropriate' artwork. After that she says her ideas were all shot down and she was pretty much relegated to being a secretary and so she quit soon after. BTW Wells had nothing but good things to say about Gygax who hired her with some enthusiasm.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;959248So excluding a group of people from being able to work on something they want due to skin colour or gender is not harmful?  Huhn.

THIS is where the "progressives" have brought us. We have reached the nirvana of "good" discrimination.

Kudos motherfuckers.

Quote from: CRKrueger;959252The idea I find most repellent is the idea of the "safe space" (as partially demonstrated here by Trech), that the hobby is so horribly toxic that only by white men setting up protections from other white men can women be free to safely pursue their passions.  That's obscenely patronizing, in an infantilizing kind of way.  It's practically a White Man's Burden level of cringeworthy.

How many SJWs would be left if the White Knights left their cause?

We've achieved a bizarro world where the "misogynists" are arguing women have enough skills, talents and determination to achieve their dreams while the "feminists" are arguing women can't take a shit without assistance.

Again, kudos motherfuckers.

Quote from: Nexus;959258If you want to argue there should be no laws restricting limits on hiring maybe but saying "Men need not apply" shouldn't be anymore okay than saying "Blacks need not apply."

Also note the recruitment vibe is focused on increasing the number of potential sex partners in the hobby, not increasing the number of competitors for those partners.

Quote from: sureshot;959494It was the same thing with comic books, video games, sci-fi and fantasy novels. Most women when I was younger would not be caught dead playing video games or reading any of the three. It was not the type of thing the cool people did. It was the less cool who people who did it. I have to second that WW did help the situation.

Quote from: Nexus;959497I've experienced about the same thing. There were more women reading sci-fi, fantasy and similar genres though more quietly, IME, Ny mother was a ardent sci fi/horror and got me started. But it does seem like they're more "out of the closet" recently and openly "geeky" about their fandom

I suspect that with the currently coming of age generation (do they have a name yet? "post-millennials?"), it's pretty hard to maintain the 'nerdy things are for socially awkward boys' stereotype going.  They have had blockbuster fantasy and superhero films their whole lives, their parents play video games, and playing pokemon and MtG in grade and middle school respectively is something that is older than they are.

The irony being that some hate that the rpg hobby has become mainstream. Better it never left their parents basements which is the dumbest thing I ever heard. So instead of being happy people play more rpg and video games, read more comic books and fantasy sci-fi novels. It was better that it remain some kind of exclusive club. I think it's those who are the true misogynists as they tend to also be the ones who resent women doing all of the things I listed previously. So but I cannot and will not respect that segment of the hobby. It's some serious kind of backward thinking I want nothing to do with. Seeing how geek culture is mainstream I wish I was born twenty years later. What made me a social pariah then would have made me the cool guy now.

Quote from: Spinachcat;959525We've achieved a bizarro world where the "misogynists" are arguing women have enough skills, talents and determination to achieve their dreams while the "feminists" are arguing women can't take a shit without assistance.

I feel like that fake native-american guy in the old "Keep America Clean" PSA's.

I read this and one lone tear ran down my cheek, I was laughing so hard.