QuoteThough I would not be surprised -- and would even welcome -- a "3.5 Revised" core set with the errata and the new stat blocks. Man I love those things!

I would say that's the one wish on the wish list. I love the new stat block format, and every week when I build encounters, I have to revise everything to fit it.

I use the template on the page link below:

http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/newstatblock.htm

I really don't see how talking about 4e would be "enemy action".

A 3rd party publisher is MUCH more likely to be hurt by 4e than Wizards.

On the topic of timing, it *is* just about that time isn't it?

First edition was 1977-1979, 2e was 1989, 3e was 2000.

Other game systems (WOD, GURPs) have been shortening edition cycles, so an 8 year cycling from 3e to 4e wouldn't surprise me, which would be 2008, which I believe I've predicted elsewhere.

That would mean announcement at GenCon 07 with the game coming a year later. I keep hearing people say they think WOTC is just going to "spring" 4e on folks, show up at GenCon one year and say "here it is!" but I think we'll get PLENTY of notice. This is a launch on the scale of the PS2 for the company. They will not spring it on folks.

Now to me, an 8-10 year cycle is pretty much a lock but my main question is, are we starting the clock from 2000 or 2003 (3.5)?

I really think 3.5 is something of a wild card in all this.

Chuck

Its "enemy action" in the sense that when these kinds of rumours are spread by would-be "industry" types, its done so to try to scare people into not buying 3.x books, and probably buying their products instead.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditA number of people, some more famous some less, and some very famous designers with resentments towards Wizards, have already made fools of themselves with their prediction that 2006 was going to be the year of 4th Edition.

Well, 2006 has come and gone, and no sign of 4e on the horizon.  Does anyone want to volunteer to be roundly laughed at and mocked with claims about 2007? Chris Pramas is already a volunteer!

RPGPundit

first: i'm enjoying your GR hate- and i don't mean that in a sarcastic way. As I have said before, I'm a whore for True20- buuut I've seen a bit of ugly treatment of users on their forums, so I'm inclined to believe, that in this case, you have a basis for your ire.

second: on the 4th e topic- who cares if predictions made about its arrival are right or wrong? Really. I mean you're stomping about declaring victory. What did you win? Not a thing. what did Chris Paramis stand to lose by speculating - not a thing, I bet.

I look over this site, which i like, and i see a lot of pointless fucking discussions- like arguing over relative validity of playstyles, or things like the meaning of the word fun, or long winded posts about snackfoodism.



Have you all lost sight of the fact that none of it matters? none of it. None.  They are games. Fucking diversions. RPG games. Story games. Role playing or roll playing- guess what- it doesn't fucking matter, and as soon as it starts to matter the whole point of the hobby is fucking lost.
I'm not a big fan of EN world, but you know what, they post about gaming over there. They talk about their campaigns and their characters. They quibble over rules in a alarmingly fatbeardly way. It's rather charming.
So, anyway, I'm guessing that 4e will be announced on valentines day and every 4e PHB will come with an inflatable drow girlfriend, a +4 pocket pussy and a pseudodragon familair that speaks only in rhyme.

Quote from: RPGPunditIts "enemy action" in the sense that when these kinds of rumours are spread by would-be "industry" types, its done so to try to scare people into not buying 3.x books, and probably buying their products instead.

RPGPundit

I guess that's one way to look at it.

A really really DUMB way, but one way.

Look, all us 3rd party guys are more or less riding Wizards' coattails.

When 4th edition is released, WOTC will experience a surge of sales selling core rulebooks again. On the other hand, if 4e is not OGC, many many 3rd party publishers will need to seriously change course or go out of business.

I mean, if we're all engaging in "enemy action" and trying to convince people 4e is near, why are companies investing so much time and energy into building brands that will be somewhat insulated when 4e comes around.

Because we WANT 4e?

Let's be somewhat realistic here shall we?

And as for looking like "an idiot", I don't see guessing about 4e as some grand conspiracy of "enemy action".

I mean, we know it's coming and past experience lends one to believe it could come anytime between 2008 and 2010. If 3.5 is in fact a new edition, that could push things back to 2013.

So what?

3rd party people speculating about 4e is like farmers talking about the weather. We know change will come, we know it will affect us, our LIVELIHOODS are at stake and we just hope it won't be bad.

Pardon the FUCK out of us for talking about something that affects us.

This is my full time job.

Not some fucking dumb ass soap box that I use to try and beat people up because I think it's funny.

Personally, I think Wizards is going to announce D&D 4 at the 'D&D Experience' either this year or next... and I'm personally thinking next year... or if they announce it this year, it'll be released next year.  When they renamed the RPGA Winter Fantasy to D&D X, they said that they were going to make major D&D announcements there from now on.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck3rd party people speculating about 4e is like farmers talking about the weather. We know change will come, we know it will affect us, our LIVELIHOODS are at stake and we just hope it won't be bad.

Pardon the FUCK out of us for talking about something that affects us.

Chuck, just chill the fuck out for a moment.  Nobody accused you of anything.  In the Pramas case in particular and in general, there are people for whom a 4e scare might be of benefit.  How many new non-d20 systems have come down the pike recently?  I submit that a false rumor of a new D&D edition might send some fanboy dollars away from Wizards and towards the alternatives.

Now, I'm not in the gaming business and if you want to tell me I'm full of shit, go ahead.  But known industry professionals publicly speculating on 4e isn't the same as farmers shooting the breeze about the weather.  When a farmer says he thinks it's going to rain, that doesn't change the price of soybeans.  The situation is more like Bill Gates publicly discussing the future of TimeWarner.  He might not have any inside knowledge of the company, but it sure as hell is going to affect at least some investors.

Quote from: jrientsThe situation is more like Bill Gates publicly discussing the future of TimeWarner.  He might not have any inside knowledge of the company, but it sure as hell is going to affect at least some investors.

No owner of a 3rd party company is Bill Gates.

I think a more accurate analogy would be the manager of your local EB speculating about the release of the X-Box 720.

This notion that the owner of any 3rd RPG company, even one as big as Chris Pramas (whose company is an order of magnitude more successful than the two-man operation I work for) *could* take "enemy action" against Wizards is almost as dumb to me as the idea that anyone would *want to* take "enemy action".

Yes, some companies have taken steps to make sure they're in a better spot if 4th edition comes and it isn't OGC, like Green Ronin (this is my opinion as an outsider- it's an educated guess- I do not know for a fact they are doing this).

That doesn't mean WOTC isn't good for business.

No 3rd party publisher with a brain wishes ill on WOTC, and having done a search of Mearls' site and a general search for the phrase "enemy action" and finding nothing, I doubt he ever said that.

If he did, then that's dumb too.

I say again: WOTC is good for business and everyone who doesn't have their head up their ass knows this.

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckI guess that's one way to look at it.

A really really DUMB way, but one way.

Look, all us 3rd party guys are more or less riding Wizards' coattails.

When 4th edition is released, WOTC will experience a surge of sales selling core rulebooks again. On the other hand, if 4e is not OGC, many many 3rd party publishers will need to seriously change course or go out of business.

I mean, if we're all engaging in "enemy action" and trying to convince people 4e is near, why are companies investing so much time and energy into building brands that will be somewhat insulated when 4e comes around.

Because we WANT 4e?

Let's be somewhat realistic here shall we?

What "you" want is to:
a) scare people into thinking that if they buy a Wizards book instead of your book it will be useless in a few months.
b) try to make people think that Wizards are just evil moneygrubbing corporate whores that will put out a new edition just to "screw people".
c) sell your "alternative" systems and products that are "Now 4e Insulated For Your Protection!".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckNo 3rd party publisher with a brain wishes ill on WOTC, and having done a search of Mearls' site and a general search for the phrase "enemy action" and finding nothing, I doubt he ever said that.

If he did, then that's dumb too.

I say again: WOTC is good for business and everyone who doesn't have their head up their ass knows this.

(emphasis mine)

In the case of Green Ronin, a whole bunch of personal experiences has led me to believe that its directors, who are always the most vocal to hatefully spitefully shout that 4e is about to come and ruin everyone's lives, have any of the former, and all suffer from the latter.

Remember, these are the same people who spent the better part of a year violently resisting putting out a product that had every indication of potentially making a shitload of money, just because what they really wanted to do was stick to the ideologically-motivated setting they'd tacked onto it that no one wanted but them.  And even after they finally gave in (and rewrote history to try to make it look like they'd always supported the idea), they have gone on trying to sabotage their own product at every turn with idiotic settings that the fans don't want, because they think they know better than the fans about what would be good for them.

These aren't exactly people who put "good business sense" first, and they have a massive grudge against Wizards.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckNo owner of a 3rd party company is Bill Gates.

I think a more accurate analogy would be the manager of your local EB speculating about the release of the X-Box 720.

Which can change the minds of some uninformed customers and end up redirecting money towards a more profitable avenue for the manager.  You're making my point for me, I think.

QuoteThis notion that the owner of any 3rd RPG company, even one as big as Chris Pramas (whose company is an order of magnitude more successful than the two-man operation I work for) *could* take "enemy action" against Wizards is almost as dumb to me as the idea that anyone would *want to* take "enemy action".

Could they directly attack Wizards?  Probably not.  Would a well-placed rumor cost Wizards a few sales and maybe send people looking for other products?  Maybe.

QuoteThat doesn't mean WOTC isn't good for business.

No 3rd party publisher with a brain wishes ill on WOTC,

I agree.  I feel I lack sufficient information to say whether Mr. Pramas counts as a "3rd party publisher with a brain".  He's certainly had successes, but he could still have a grudge against Wizards or he could be capable of miscalculated rumourmongering.  I don't know.  I merely offer that such a scenario isn't impossible.  When a man with money at stake publicly offers an opinion, I tend to wonder whether the opinion is an honest assessment or a pronouncement calculated to sway people to his benefit.

Quoteand having done a search of Mearls' site and a general search for the phrase "enemy action" and finding nothing, I doubt he ever said that.

This is what I was thinking of when I wrote my earlier statement.

QuoteI say again: WOTC is good for business and everyone who doesn't have their head up their ass knows this.

Right.  On this point we're in complete agreement.

Quote from: jrientsCould they directly attack Wizards?  Probably not.  Would a well-placed rumor cost Wizards a few sales and maybe send people looking for other products?  Maybe.

Puh-leaze.

I remember threads where Pramas talked about 4e. It was a typical "an unnamed source in WOTC says 4th edition was near" type thread.

And he said basically what *I* said upthread.

Here, I'll engage in a little more unconventional warfare and repeat it: New editions of D&D come in 8-10 year cycles. Edition cycles of games have generally been getting closer together.

Based on those two facts, we might be nearing the end of a cycle.

Now, I don't have an OGL game to plug. I'm not writing Warhammer, or Runequest or anything non-d20.

I'm a d20 designer who hasn't needed to hold a day job for 3 years.

You think that was enemy action right there that I just said?

It's a fucking fact.

Historically speaking, we should see a new edition of D&D between 2008 and 2010. If 3.5 hit the "reset" button on that cycle, add 3 years.

But hey, as long as you dumbasses get to chortle and dance and pat Pundit on the back as he calls people stupid idiots for expressing FACTS that you don't like, more power to you.

Chuck is right.

Also, people shouldn't forget that the coming of a new edition feels a lot "nearer" for publishers/designers than it does for Joe-average gamer.

2008-2009 might not feel like "soon" to us but for companies who undertake, for instance, Iron Kingdoms-like projects (massive fantasy tomes) it always feels like it will be soon and with good reason. Some of these books/game lines take 2, 3, 4 years to come out of the gates.

The adjustment from 3.0 to 3.5 didn't go smoothly for many companies/products and it really highlighted that small companies must keep an eye on the next edition of D&D. To blame them for speculating like Pundit does strikes me as fucking weird. You'd have to be dumb not to care if you're in the D20/OGL business.

I, for one, am going to be really pissed if I have to wait until 2010 for my inflatable drow girlfriend. I've waited too long already.