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Author Topic: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted  (Read 2732 times)

estar

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2020, 04:13:41 pm »
Eh. Estar is pretty mild compared to some other posters I've seen. Pundit isn't sacrosant, and I think Estar has a point in his comments.
Thanks.

But then I also think Pundit has a point in that this "deconstruction" shit is stupid.
Never found much use or value in the technique in any subject.

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For other folks reading this, what it boils down is that I have a disagreement over how RPGPundit markets himself and his products and how that intertwines with this site. I don't think the Pundit is "evil", I don't think his products suck because of this issue. If I have problem with something else, then I talk about that thing.

Nor to do I feel the need to spam the internet about this one specific issue because the only place where it intersects with anything I am interested in is here on the TheRPGSite.

To be clear, I don't care what the Pundit and the poster who started this think about Kingdom borders. I got an opinion of course but it is irrelevant to the point I made.

And to be clear, if I had my way, I would jettison all the political crap on this site as off-topic. The only reason it exists the way it does now is because Pundits feels it is the most effective way of marketing his work.

For those of you who are not familiar with me from when I was a moderator here, my approach after the first warnings, was to mock for not following instructions, and use my ability as moderator to move the topic or post to a different subforum. Beyond the free speech policy of this site, I personally don't care for the ban game. The forum software gives moderators more than enough control over posts without resorting to bans in all but the most egregious cases.

Undoubtedly some of you will still try to lump in with the RPG.net assholes. Feel free to do so if that make you feel better.

Now all of this is my opinion. It is the Pundit's site and he can choose to do what he wants with it. I am well of aware of this. He doesn't owe me anything nor I owe him anything.  He done good work with his product in the past and he probably will continue to do good work in the future.

As you may already noticed he brought points like " ASSUMES Western Civilization is Racist in such a way that you can't respond to the statement itself without inherently accepting that premise".

The Pundit has his opinions on well everything including the above. What drives his approach that he believe in what folks like Marshall McLuhan teaches. For example the Medium is the Message.

The problem with taking this approach of McLuhan and other similar thinkers is that it only useful for when the channels of communication are limited. Thus can be monopolized. On the internet channels of communications are not limited. What limited is your attention span, the fact there are only 24 hours in a day. So what you see, what you think is happening is largely, but not always, influenced by what you choose to pay attention too. I am no exception to this.

For example if you read nothing but D100 blogs, forums, videos, and books, you may think that D100 based RPGs play a bigger role in the hobby and industry than they really do. However these days that is pretty much OK if you do a lot of your shopping and reading on the internet. Because it so cheap and inexpensive to distribute D100 material there quite a bit of it out there. The same with a lot of other RPG niches, like the OSR.

So a clever author who happens to know a few media tricks, is willing to work at it, can build an audience by deliberately making provocative statements, designed to attract reader and listeners. Especially if those messages tie into a larger societal trend. Basically filling the attention span one has for a hobby.

I intensely dislike that approach. I don't care what being tapped into whether it is politics left or right or something else.

So just keep in mind while discussing SJWs, bigoted fantasy settings, and saving western civilization that you are doing it in a place that over the past five years been structured to do one thing, to sell the products that the Pundit has written.

Why I am bothering with this at all? I been posting here since 2007 I do have some feelings invested in here and I got my opinions. Circumstances were such on this post, I shared them. Like I say with my other stuff whether it just shared or commercial; if you feel it useful great, if you don't I understand.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 04:16:38 pm by estar »

VisionStorm

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2020, 04:20:21 pm »
I think we have a conflict of definitions here.

We have conflicting definitions because everyone uses their own subjective definitions about WTF political terms mean, so political terminology has become completely meaningless. They might as well be saying “abracadabra”. Not that they ever meant that much, particularly the completely arbitrary terms “Left-Wing” and “Right-Wing”, which always had variable meaning from country to country. But at least at some point there used to be some semblance of consistency or consensus about what these terms meant.

But these days everyone from the entire political spectrum (which realistically consists of far more than just “left” or “right” or even “center”) wants to insert their own definition or usage of these terms, based entirely on a combination of personal opinion, tribal affiliations and evolving definitions and interpretations of WTF these terms mean that have zero consensus and did not apply for most of history. And then insist on applying these definitions retroactively when discussing any type of politics from any period of time.

To the point where we have people insisting that conservatives and the so-called “right” were always the defenders of liberty, personal choice (lets forget about abortion, or drug/alcohol prohibition, old anti-porn attitudes, the Satanic Panic, opposing flag burning, etc. and a bunch of other restrictions originally coming from the “right”) and small government (never mind the War of Iraq, its trillion dollar deficit, the historical jingoism of the “right” and the gargantuan government enterprise that the military is), while liberals and the so-called left are the champions of state-sanctioned encroachments on liberty and big government (despite the “left-wing” being originally the anti-government/monarchy types), because we have SJWs now.

So that means we have to forget about stuff like the War in Iraq, which happened in recent history, and focus only on how SJWs are control freaks, who want to control even our games and push for racially “sensitive” and inclusive depictions in fantasy art, etc. therefore ALL “leftists” are control freaks. Because conservative tribalists want to lump the entirety of the “left” and liberalism with SJWs, which means that everything must be framed in terms of “right” = freedumb, “left” = slavery. Unless we’re talking with a so-called leftist, of course, in which case we have to frame things in terms of how people who mock the use of pronouns, oppose giving puberty blockers to children or just want to passively play RPGs set in worlds that emulate ancient Europe are really secret fascists seeking to promote white supremacist values. Making any type of political discussion a complete clusterfuck of people speaking pass each other, because everyone wants to apply their own pet definition of WTF “liberal” or “conservative”, or any other bullshit political term means.

While he does not have to leave I just wonder why if he hates Pundit so much does he take the time to even comment on Pundits posts.

Eh. Estar is pretty mild compared to some other posters I've seen.
Pundit isn't sacrosant, and I think Estar has a point in his comments.
But then I also think Pundit has a point in that this "deconstruction" shit is stupid.

I agree. And largely agree with Pundit’s position on this topic, but I also appreciate Estar’s perspective on this and his general contributions in many discussions. And also agree that the lack of links to provide proper context in these discussions can be an issue, but I also understand Pundit’s reasons for not including them, particularly in the sense that these people LOVE to present any inclusion of such links by their detractors signals that they’re inciting a mob against them.

RPGPundit

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #47 on: October 02, 2020, 10:02:44 pm »
Guys, I think the conversation about the definition of classical liberalism, conservatism, etc. is going too far off topic. Stick to the subject. You can of course question MY politics with regard to how it relates to this video, but please don't go into bigger metadiscussions.
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Razor 007

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2020, 01:56:33 am »
I don't care if people think that either I, or things that I like are "wrong"; until it interferes with the availability of the things that I like.  I don't care if other people piss on themselves, whenever they think about me.  The problem lies with this new modern culture that believes it's a mortal sin to offend someone.  That same culture aggressively searches for "something" to piss and scream about, ALL THE FREAKING TIME!!!

Piss on the SJW crowd.
I need you to roll a perception check.....

Snark Knight

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2020, 07:51:38 am »
Presumably Wakanda is the exception.

tenbones

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2020, 10:35:37 am »
I'll go out on limb here (philosophy wanker in me rears its head)...

Deconstruction is useful.

I'm on the record all over this forum (and many other places) taking a nice shit on Pathological Post-Modernism. But there is a difference between Post-Modernism and Pathological Post-Modernism. The differences are narrow, as is the value - (which I fault no one for dismissing), the idea being that deconstruction and Post-Modernism which fuels it is useful IF the idea is to truly honor the thing being deconstructed for the purposes of creating something novel and hopefully "better".

It's a tricky thing, because the deconstruction can lose the meaning of the "thing" - this is how Fantasy Heartbreakers are born.

the problem is people engage in Deconstruction without any sense of discipline and awareness. This is a timely example which is getting tossed around - Chesterton's Fence (G.K. Chesterton who had a great line in his book 'The Thing')

Do not remove a fence until you know why it was put up in the first place.

This is an amazing principle to start from when it comes to game-design. Deconstructionism ideally should be about controlled demolition/examination... and ideally rebuilding. The problem is today too many people do the demolition part because they have no real capacity to examine.

Which is Pathological Post-Modernism at its finest. All things get reduced or conflated from the top down, or the bottom up in value. Which is no real shocker that SJW's would find Fantasy as bigotted... because they are ideologically incapable of discerning the elements of fiction/non-fiction that are used to drive narrative without impugning some kind of endorsement of that conflict upon anyone that writes or consumes it.

Which is scary because they don't *really* understand it. It's very superstitious thinking.


Ratman_tf

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2020, 10:51:16 am »
I'll go out on limb here (philosophy wanker in me rears its head)...

Deconstruction is useful.

I'm on the record all over this forum (and many other places) taking a nice shit on Pathological Post-Modernism. But there is a difference between Post-Modernism and Pathological Post-Modernism. The differences are narrow, as is the value - (which I fault no one for dismissing), the idea being that deconstruction and Post-Modernism which fuels it is useful IF the idea is to truly honor the thing being deconstructed for the purposes of creating something novel and hopefully "better".

It's a tricky thing, because the deconstruction can lose the meaning of the "thing" - this is how Fantasy Heartbreakers are born.

the problem is people engage in Deconstruction without any sense of discipline and awareness. This is a timely example which is getting tossed around - Chesterton's Fence (G.K. Chesterton who had a great line in his book 'The Thing')

Do not remove a fence until you know why it was put up in the first place.

This is an amazing principle to start from when it comes to game-design. Deconstructionism ideally should be about controlled demolition/examination... and ideally rebuilding. The problem is today too many people do the demolition part because they have no real capacity to examine.

Which is Pathological Post-Modernism at its finest. All things get reduced or conflated from the top down, or the bottom up in value. Which is no real shocker that SJW's would find Fantasy as bigotted... because they are ideologically incapable of discerning the elements of fiction/non-fiction that are used to drive narrative without impugning some kind of endorsement of that conflict upon anyone that writes or consumes it.

Which is scary because they don't *really* understand it. It's very superstitious thinking.

Totally agree. I think deconstruction is best used in the literary field. Applying it directly to government and society and now science(!) has gotten us some really bonkers results that are starting to bear violent and oppressive fruit.
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RandyB

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2020, 10:57:36 am »
I'll go out on limb here (philosophy wanker in me rears its head)...

Deconstruction is useful.

I'm on the record all over this forum (and many other places) taking a nice shit on Pathological Post-Modernism. But there is a difference between Post-Modernism and Pathological Post-Modernism. The differences are narrow, as is the value - (which I fault no one for dismissing), the idea being that deconstruction and Post-Modernism which fuels it is useful IF the idea is to truly honor the thing being deconstructed for the purposes of creating something novel and hopefully "better".

It's a tricky thing, because the deconstruction can lose the meaning of the "thing" - this is how Fantasy Heartbreakers are born.

the problem is people engage in Deconstruction without any sense of discipline and awareness. This is a timely example which is getting tossed around - Chesterton's Fence (G.K. Chesterton who had a great line in his book 'The Thing')

Do not remove a fence until you know why it was put up in the first place.

This is an amazing principle to start from when it comes to game-design. Deconstructionism ideally should be about controlled demolition/examination... and ideally rebuilding. The problem is today too many people do the demolition part because they have no real capacity to examine.

Which is Pathological Post-Modernism at its finest. All things get reduced or conflated from the top down, or the bottom up in value. Which is no real shocker that SJW's would find Fantasy as bigotted... because they are ideologically incapable of discerning the elements of fiction/non-fiction that are used to drive narrative without impugning some kind of endorsement of that conflict upon anyone that writes or consumes it.

Which is scary because they don't *really* understand it. It's very superstitious thinking.



Exactly. SJWs are superstitious, end to end.

Delete_me

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2020, 12:06:02 pm »
Wall of very useful and insightful text

...you are a gem and can we get more of you out there? I feel like we could all come down off a ledge if we had this kind of nuanced approach to everything, not just gaming. :)

Slipshot762

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2020, 08:48:21 pm »
The idea or existence of ethnostates doesn't bother me. when i went to japan there were places i was not welcome, no giajen or whatever, they said it was because japan was for japanese people. that didnt bother me. ethnostates are something i can take or leave, i do not believe the concept itself to be inherently good or bad; and when you extrapolate to a fictional world with different species that are more distinct than human inter-species racial lines i think they become even more defensible as such.

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2020, 01:01:48 am »
I guess there's an argument that fantasy worlds like Greyhawk & Golarion often have a post-Westphalian look about them? An anachronism for a 'medieval' world, but just one of many. This doesn't apply to Forgotten Realms, where the default government seems more the independent city-state.

I have no idea whether fantasy countries are more or less 'ethnostates' than real countries were in say 1650; if they are it's probably just because of simplification, and perhaps because Anglo-American fantasy authors naturally use England as a model. Medieval or post-Medieval England was a lot more ethnically homogenous than most European countries. Also it's kind of hard to care about minor human ethnic differences when there are stone giants next door.
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HappyDaze

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2020, 04:49:56 am »
I guess there's an argument that fantasy worlds like Greyhawk & Golarion often have a post-Westphalian look about them? An anachronism for a 'medieval' world, but just one of many. This doesn't apply to Forgotten Realms, where the default government seems more the independent city-state.
Are you familiar with the whole of the Forgotten Realms, or just of the (Savage) North/Sword Coast? City-states (with a loose alliance among them) is the rule there and in a few other areas (e.g., the Moonsea region), but elsewhere there very much are nations that grow beyond a city-state, such as Cormyr, Sembia, Aglarond, Turmish, Thay, and many more. Even close to the Sword Coast, Amn and Tethyr are well beyond what you see further north. The only general statement that can accurately be made about the Forgotten Realms is that just about everything is jammed in there somewhere (and not always in a logically consistent manner).

Anon Adderlan

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2020, 05:05:27 am »
Is this the tweet we're discussing?

https://twitter.com/nataliereed84/status/1308972846182526976

Tweet quoted and archived for reference:

Quote
STOP MAKING FANTASY SETTINGS CONSISTING OF CLEARLY DEFINED BORDERS BETWEEN ETHNOSTATES.

Also Twitter Bio:

Quote
Preferred pronoun is the sound of a brick thru a window. Opinions are not my own. "Mildly mean and slightly revenge-conscious". Sucks dick as praxis.

Sounds delightful. Might actually be troll. Also Related tweet:

Quote
Okay. I take it back. You can be uncoordinated and self-contradictory.

But FOR FUCK'S SAKE AT LEAST LEARN WHAT "ETHNOSTATE" ACTUALLY FUCKING MEANS.

Hint:

It's not just "a nation that is largely ethnically homogenous".

Well that kinda renders the argument moot as I can't think of a single fantasy RPG which draws their borders this way. Then again they could be operating under a drastically different definition of what 'ethnicity' is.

*checks Oxford via Google*

Quote
ethnicity
[eTHˈnisədē]
NOUN
the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.

Well now I'm really confused. Guess I'll have to wait until The Left redefine the term.

S'mon

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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2020, 01:19:19 pm »
I guess there's an argument that fantasy worlds like Greyhawk & Golarion often have a post-Westphalian look about them? An anachronism for a 'medieval' world, but just one of many. This doesn't apply to Forgotten Realms, where the default government seems more the independent city-state.
Are you familiar with the whole of the Forgotten Realms, or just of the (Savage) North/Sword Coast? City-states (with a loose alliance among them) is the rule there and in a few other areas (e.g., the Moonsea region), but elsewhere there very much are nations that grow beyond a city-state, such as Cormyr, Sembia, Aglarond, Turmish, Thay, and many more. Even close to the Sword Coast, Amn and Tethyr are well beyond what you see further north. The only general statement that can accurately be made about the Forgotten Realms is that just about everything is jammed in there somewhere (and not always in a logically consistent manner).

Well my game is set in Damara, a kingdom, but looking across to the Moonsea it seems to be all city states too. Even Damara is very pre-Westphalian, with local nobles more powerful than the throne.
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Re: SJWs Declare All Fantasy Settings Bigoted
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2020, 04:31:52 am »
So...if we don't draw lines on a map, what do we do?

Do nations ONLY have amorphous borders or natural borders?

And what exactly drives this latest retard noise from the leftists? Is it 100% because Trump is pro-borders or just 99% because Trump is pro-borders?

Presumably Wakanda is the exception.

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LOL. So true.